Author Topic: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play  (Read 8545 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-5
 7-2-1 ART. 1 . . . After the ready-for-play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap. (this is the 2019 rule book)

With the adoption of the 40 second play clock, there is no ready for play except for the stated clock stoppages. When do the players have to be inside the 9 yard marks with the 40 second play clock?

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1084
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-8
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 01:12:13 PM »
7-2-1 ART. 1 . . . After the ready-for-play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap. (this is the 2019 rule book)

With the adoption of the 40 second play clock, there is no ready for play except for the stated clock stoppages. When do the players have to be inside the 9 yard marks with the 40 second play clock?

The ready for play does still exist. It's when the U steps away from the ball. It's going to be about the same time the R would have blown the whistle if a crew was fairly consistent with ball mechanics (10-15 seconds after the previous play ended. You'll still treat this rule from the philosophy standpoint of deception. If they aren't intentionally trying to hide someone out or sneak someone in late it's a talk to at best.

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-5
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 01:51:55 PM »
2-35 Ready-for-play signifies that the ball may be put in play by a snap or a free kick with 25 seconds or 40 seconds on the play clock.
3-6-1 ART. 1 . . . Play clock and ready-for-play:
a. Play clock:

1. 25 seconds will be on the play clock and start on the ready-for-play signal:

(a) Prior to a try following a score;

(b) To start a period or overtime series;

(c) Following administration of an inadvertent whistle;

(d) Following a charged time-out;

(e) Following an official's time-out as in 3-5-7 or 3-5-10, except for 3-5-7b; and

(f) Following the stoppage of the play clock by the referee for any other reason.

2. 40 seconds will be on the play clock after a down other than specified in 3-6-1a(1), and start when the ball is declared dead by a game official.

b. The ball is ready for play:

1. When the ball has been placed for a down and the referee marks the ball ready for play after giving the ready-for-play signal as in 3-6-1a(1);

2. Starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position as in 3-6-1a(2).

These are the rules as they apply to ready for play. The time that the ready for play is blown by R is easy to officiate and has not changed from last year. However, the 40 second play clock leaves a lot of play in the interpretation of when the player has to be inside the 9 yard marks. A literal reading of the rule says the ready for play starts immediately after the ball is blown dead and after the game official moves to his position. There needs to be a mechanic that defines what and when exactly that is to take place or there will a lot of inconsistencies in the time of getting the players inside the numbers from one crew to the next.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2940
  • FAN REACTION: +134/-1004
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2019, 02:58:31 PM »
Well, not exactly. The 40 second rule literally reads that while the play clock does start when the ball becomes dead (except for noted exceptions), the ball is not ready for play until the game official moves to his position. So, to answer the question, every player and/or substitute must have been within the 9 yard marks at some point between the time the official puts the ball down and moves to his position, and the snap.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 03:11:59 PM »
There needs to be a mechanic that defines what and when exactly that is to take place or there will a lot of inconsistencies in the time of getting the players inside the numbers from one crew to the next.

Unfortunately, you are correct.  Let's hope the NFHS Rule Makers considered the potential for a new level of inconsistency when assessing the stark differences between 4 & 5 man crews (with/without 40 second field clocks) and 6 & 7 man crews (with/without 40 second field clocks) when deciding that the suggested inconsistency alleged with only 25 second RFP could better be dealt with by adopting a 40 second play timing, rather than strengthening the existing RFP mechanics and procedures.  Time will tell.

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1084
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-8
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 05:31:03 PM »
Unfortunately, you are correct.  Let's hope the NFHS Rule Makers considered the potential for a new level of inconsistency when assessing the stark differences between 4 & 5 man crews (with/without 40 second field clocks) and 6 & 7 man crews (with/without 40 second field clocks) when deciding that the suggested inconsistency alleged with only 25 second RFP could better be dealt with by adopting a 40 second play timing, rather than strengthening the existing RFP mechanics and procedures.  Time will tell.

This is not a major change in the formation rule regarding the 9-yard marks. The intent of that rule is just to make sure a team is hiding out a player or sneaking someone in late. If you are calling it that technically that you need the precise second the ball is ready for play you are missing the intent of the 9-yard rule. I think we've only had it as a foul once since the rule change came into effect and we were probably a little too technical that time.

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-5
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 06:42:43 PM »
There is nothing technical about this rule. All players on A have to be inside the 9 yard marks when the ball is marked ready for play. This is a penalty that is consistently called here. If the ball is marked ready for play and the player does not come inside the numbers, it is flagged. Do that once or twice in a game, the players have no problems getting legal. The problem is the crews that don't like the rule and do not enforce it. Then I have to listen to the crap about the crew last week didn't call it. If this was a rule about hide outs only, the rule would say it only applies when a receiver is not covered by a defender. It doesn't say that. Call the rules a written. Coaches don't like a rule, they will get it changed. Not our job to ignore the rule. My concern with the new 40 second play clock is that there is no mechanic that sets a strict guide as to how quickly the ball needs to be placed by the Umpire and how quickly he needs to get into his position. I have seen crews that this simple task takes 20 seconds, other crews can get it done in 5-10 seconds. Coaches and players have a right to know what the mechanic is and should not be at the mercy of a lazy crew.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3848
  • FAN REACTION: +99/-283
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 07:04:05 AM »
There is nothing technical about this rule. All players on A have to be inside the 9 yard marks when the ball is marked ready for play. This is a penalty that is consistently called here. If the ball is marked ready for play and the player does not come inside the numbers, it is flagged. Do that once or twice in a game, the players have no problems getting legal. The problem is the crews that don't like the rule and do not enforce it. Then I have to listen to the crap about the crew last week didn't call it. If this was a rule about hide outs only, the rule would say it only applies when a receiver is not covered by a defender. It doesn't say that. Call the rules a written. Coaches don't like a rule, they will get it changed. Not our job to ignore the rule. My concern with the new 40 second play clock is that there is no mechanic that sets a strict guide as to how quickly the ball needs to be placed by the Umpire and how quickly he needs to get into his position. I have seen crews that this simple task takes 20 seconds, other crews can get it done in 5-10 seconds. Coaches and players have a right to know what the mechanic is and should not be at the mercy of a lazy crew.

We're thinking that the idea that the virtual ready-for-play is the moment that the U, or who ever spots the ball, steps away and assumes his position is flat out not workable.  Many of the hurry up teams here have the players inside the 9's for just a few seconds immediately after the end of the previous play and everyone is in position and ready for the snap by the time the RFP was sounded (last year under NCAA rules).  Our thoughts are that if all players are inside the 9's after the end of the previous play AND that does not leave any uncovered A players at the snap, then we're good.  The clear purpose and intent of the rule is two fold:  1.  Make sure that we know who are actually "players" for the upcoming down, and 2.  Make sure that both teams know the same.  We'll see how it goes.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 09:21:11 AM »
Then I have to listen to the crap about the crew last week didn't call it.

It really doesn't matter where you happen to work, but whining about what, "the crew last week didn't (or did) call last week" about something, someone on the other side of a sideline disagrees with is, sadly universal.  Thankfully, you get to decide, first, whether you choose to hear what is being said, and more importantly, whether YOU choose whether to pay any attention (whatsoever) to it or if it deserves consequences.

Offline TampaSteve

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
  • FAN REACTION: +23/-13
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 07:04:41 PM »
it seems reasonable that once the ball is set by U that L/J should have their eyes peeled for players inside 9yd.
it seems reasonable for when U is in place to fulfill this 9yd requirement; however, there's times every game where U is not ready & in place today and we're at the ready.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2019, 07:20:09 AM »
From a grumpy ole' guy on a wet morning in Maine....

When reading / studying / discussing / applying a rule , it's good to start with why the rule is there. As Magician was first to mention, it prevents a hide-out play or player sneaking in late.  P_S Aren't interested if you are driving 25 MPH in a 15 MPH school zone at midnight  P_S . IMHO, we should treat calls  ^flag / non-calls  yEs: the same way.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2428
  • FAN REACTION: +90/-14
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 10:48:42 AM »
Yes, technically it's a foul, just as technically a holding foul away from the point of attack is a foul. 

We don't flag the holding foul that occurs away from the point of attack, because there's no advantage gained. Why call this if the player was in for the previous play but there's a defender guarding him, so there's no advantage gained? 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3848
  • FAN REACTION: +99/-283
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 11:27:19 AM »
Yes, technically it's a foul, just as technically a holding foul away from the point of attack is a foul. 

We don't flag the holding foul that occurs away from the point of attack, because there's no advantage gained. Why call this if the player was in for the previous play but there's a defender guarding him, so there's no advantage gained?

Agreed, this is not a rule that we want to be technical with.  If we have a clear problem then we're flagging it, but otherwise we're leaving this alone.  This is also an area where the wing officials may offer some preventive officiating early in the game by suggesting to the WR's that they not line up outside the 9's until the ball is on the ground at the LOS.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 01:50:55 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-5
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 05:25:43 PM »
There is nothing technical about the rule. The player must come inside then numbers. You are the R. You see that the wide receiver did not come inside the numbers. For whatever reason, the LJ let it go because, technically, there was no advantage. The play results in a TD. Coach calls a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule. He says the receiver never came inside the numbers, it's an illegal formation, 5 yard penalty. It's not technical now. R does what, give the lame excuse that there was no advantage, or drop the flag and enforce a clear violation of the rule? Not all coaches are ignorant of the rules. Some study them more than the officials do, which is good and sad at the same time. By the way, this is not hypothetical, this happened in my game. I called the TD back and had some choice words for my end guy. Didn't happen again and has not happened since. The point of my original post was not to discuss if the rule is good or bad, but to establish a set point mechanic when the players must be inside the numbers under the new 40 second rule.

Offline riffraft

  • *
  • Posts: 305
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-19
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 05:45:29 PM »
There is nothing technical about the rule. The player must come inside then numbers. You are the R. You see that the wide receiver did not come inside the numbers. For whatever reason, the LJ let it go because, technically, there was no advantage. The play results in a TD. Coach calls a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule. He says the receiver never came inside the numbers, it's an illegal formation, 5 yard penalty. It's not technical now. R does what, give the lame excuse that there was no advantage, or drop the flag and enforce a clear violation of the rule? Not all coaches are ignorant of the rules. Some study them more than the officials do, which is good and sad at the same time. By the way, this is not hypothetical, this happened in my game. I called the TD back and had some choice words for my end guy. Didn't happen again and has not happened since. The point of my original post was not to discuss if the rule is good or bad, but to establish a set point mechanic when the players must be inside the numbers under the new 40 second rule.

So do you drop a flag and call the TD back when A55 holds B72 30 yards behind the play and A scores and the opposing coach sees it and brings it up to you? The rule is clear grabbing and restricting an opponent is holding no matter where it happens on the field.

I know you said you didn't bring it up to discuss the rule, but it definitely goes to the philosophy of when to call something and when to let it go.

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 06:18:10 PM »
That is not misapplication of a rule.  That is judgment, poor as it may have been in your eyes.  Why did you grant the conference?

You may be HACKED at your LJ but if you grant a coach-official conferences for judgment calls you may find yourself without one, and the other three positions too.

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2428
  • FAN REACTION: +90/-14
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2019, 08:00:34 AM »
Sir55,

You are the R. You see that the left tackle held on the running play around the right end. The play results in a TD. Coach calls a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule. Are you doing to "give the lame excuse that there was no advantage, or drop the flag and enforce a clear violation of the rule"?


Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2940
  • FAN REACTION: +134/-1004
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2019, 09:06:09 AM »
If I see the left anything hold on a play I’m either going to throw it or not. If I don’t, I’m surely not going to throw it later just because a coach thinks I should. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2940
  • FAN REACTION: +134/-1004
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2019, 09:08:55 AM »
If I see the left anything hold on a play I’m either going to throw it or not. If I don’t, I’m surely not going to throw it later just because a coach thinks I should. 

That’s not even a good definition of misapplication of the rule. That’s a missed judgement call.

A misapplication of a rule would be to mark off 15yds for a delay of game. Or throw a flag for face guarding after the rule has been changed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2019, 10:15:07 AM »
Excuse me, but when did a coach, or anyone outside the sideline, claiming to have seen something that was not observed by a game official become relevant, retroactively? 

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2940
  • FAN REACTION: +134/-1004
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2019, 10:26:17 AM »
Exactly. In defense of Sir55, I can see a scenario in which the 9-yard could be a misinterpretation of the rules. If this happens as described, the HC calls a TO to discuss a misapplication of the rule, and as WH I question my wing to the effect of "Hey, did the guy fulfill the requirement?" and he says something like, "No, but I didn't think he had to because of the new :40." Then I have a problem. He has misinterpreted and misapplied the rule.  But, even then we must be cautious. If he replies, "No, but both A and B were in formation. They had him covered so i judged no advantage," then my reply to the coach would be, "Coach, my guy determined no advantage gained. TD stands." Then I'll take the butt-chewing that will inevitably ensue..

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2019, 11:38:14 AM »
Exactly. In defense of Sir55, I can see a scenario in which the 9-yard could be a misinterpretation of the rules. If this happens as described, the HC calls a TO to discuss a misapplication of the rule, and as WH I question my wing to the effect of "Hey, did the guy fulfill the requirement?" and he says something like, "No, but I didn't think he had to because of the new :40." Then I have a problem. He has misinterpreted and misapplied the rule.  But, even then we must be cautious. If he replies, "No, but both A and B were in formation. They had him covered so i judged no advantage," then my reply to the coach would be, "Coach, my guy determined no advantage gained. TD stands." Then I'll take the butt-chewing that will inevitably ensue..

Where are we going with this?  Pandora's box is supposed to remain closed for good reason, and a sideline is rarely a good place to open it.  The wing official concluded the formation he observed did not violate the intent of the rule.  His judgment is an acceptable part of that decision process.  If a Referee chooses to explain the details of that decision process, he has that option, but that would not be an invitation to an immediate debate, or argument.

If the Referee concluded that some rule review, with the calling official might be of constructive future value, that is also his option as would be the time, place and tone of such a discussion held privately with the official.  Of course, if the coach elects,  he could take up his concern within his chain of command to whatever extent he chooses (after the contest is over). 

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 721
  • FAN REACTION: +633/-113
  • See it, Think about it, Pass on it if possible!
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2019, 10:04:07 PM »
We're thinking that the idea that the virtual ready-for-play is the moment that the U, or who ever spots the ball, steps away and assumes his position is flat out not workable.  Many of the hurry up teams here have the players inside the 9's for just a few seconds immediately after the end of the previous play and everyone is in position and ready for the snap by the time the RFP was sounded (last year under NCAA rules).  Our thoughts are that if all players are inside the 9's after the end of the previous play AND that does not leave any uncovered A players at the snap, then we're good.  The clear purpose and intent of the rule is two fold:  1.  Make sure that we know who are actually "players" for the upcoming down, and 2.  Make sure that both teams know the same.  We'll see how it goes.

I guess I'm confused. Didn't Massachusetts use NCAA rules last year?
The NCAA 25/40 RFP scenario is the same in both NCAA and NFHS.
Unless you were only using the 25 second clock, This should not be a change for you!
What am I missing???
SEE everything that you CALL, but; Don't CALL everything you SEE!
Never let the Rules Book get in the way of a great ball game!

Respectfully Submitted;
Some guy on a message forum

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2019, 08:11:26 AM »
IMHO, our job is to keep the game fair and safe while running it smoothly.  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag (5-man crew) More flags then a parade doesn't necessarily accomplish that.
IMHO, common sense can help the game run fair and smoothly more than being a "walking rule book waiting to happen".

Over the years I've received many coach calls with gripes/complaints/questions . Those involving fouls were : 90% fouls that we called that they felt shouldn't have been; 10% were fouls they felt should have been called that were not.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Player requirement to be inside nine yard marks after ready for play
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2019, 08:15:17 AM »
I guess I'm confused. Didn't Massachusetts use NCAA rules last year?
The NCAA 25/40 RFP scenario is the same in both NCAA and NFHS.
Unless you were only using the 25 second clock, This should not be a change for you!
What am I missing???
When the NCAA put the 40" clock in back in 2007, Massachusetts chose not to use it. When Maine separated from Massachusetts in 1820, Maine chose to be a state and not a commonwealth.