Could It Have Been Worked Differently?

[Arbitrator]

 

But it will take one hell of a recruiting effort to go out and procure new members to help out with the chains and the clocks. Not that it didn't need to be done anyway! 

[JasonTX]

That's good.  I told a coach today that we would be using a 7 man crew for his playoff game next week.  Pretty much didn't give him a choice.  He was fine with it.

[psv]

So, here is the question I have to ask:

Using the video that was shown as the example, from a philosophical standpoint, who is going to call that?

Even with 7 guys...

Just curious.

[DallasLJ]

Think the guy is the SJ.  He would watch the initial contact and should see the hold.

[psv]

I apologize I was not more precise in my question.  I wasnt asking who would have the call from a position standpoint.

I am asking, from a football officiating philosophy standpoint: is this a call we want to start making?

Let's say this was the Back Judge's Primary key and he got a good look at the action.  Is this a flag we, as officials, should start throwing?  Would you want the back judge (or FJ/SJ) on your crew to make this call in a game you are officiating?

That is what I am getting at. 

And I am all for 7 man mechanics.  But even with 7 man, is this particular play going to get called (and should it)?

[HoustonRef]

This is really pretty easy. When you get to Coby's second "mark" the B is rightfully on the #2 toward L but the H should not still be on #1. #1 on H side is no longer threatened and H should now be on #2, the biggest threat. 7 man would be easier, but even with just 5 this should be an easy switch for the H.

[HoustonRef]

And the L is about 8 yards down field when his RB is still in blocking and a threat for possible chop or OH. We can keep saying we see this 7 man, but these mechanics are so bad not sure it would help.

[BlindZebra]

I would just like to pick the brains of people to understand the mechanics.  Anyone who wants to answer how they specifically would work the play as if they were in the game at the position watching that key, by all means.  Just to get a general consensus of how the deep guy and the wings work.

[TXMike]

The fouled guy was the H's key (7 man).  He was under pressure from the get go so H would have to have stayed with him and would have seen it.  I understand the philosophy issue , i.e. why would we call this when QB went elsewhere but QB did not go elsewhere until after the foul (which is probably why he DID go elsewhere)

[HoustonRef]

Mike, is correct. If working 7 man, that is H's key the whole way.

In 5 man, B has the two inside WRs favoring the L side. L has the back and #1 WR. H should take both WRs on his side initially(since neither WR is pressed). Let the play develop, then go to biggest threat. In this case it is the #2 WR.

[beaye1]

And the L is about 8 yards down field when his RB is still in blocking and a threat for possible chop or OH. We can keep saying we see this 7 man, but these mechanics are so bad not sure it would help.

So how would work that in 5 man with the L's 1st key being the #1 WR?  In 7 man of course he would stay because his 1st key is the RB.

[HoustonRef]

So how would work that in 5 man with the L's 1st key being the #1 WR?  In 7 man of course he would stay because his 1st key is the RB.

L has both #1 and RB. #1 is never actually threatened by the defender. L could stay on the LOS and have just as good a look at the play on the sideline if not better since he would be stationary. Looks kind of like he was surprised how close he ended up to the WR. L would now have a good look at potential blocks by the RB also. By the L moving so far downfield, L has no way of seeing blocks by the RB or if he is held trying to go out for a pass.

[BlindZebra]

The fouled guy was the H's key (7 man).  He was under pressure from the get go so H would have to have stayed with him and would have seen it.  I understand the philosophy issue , i.e. why would we call this when QB went elsewhere but QB did not go elsewhere until after the foul (which is probably why he DID go elsewhere)

I don't think I would have tossed here for that reason exactly.  Take a look at the EZ shot of this play... even though you can't see the holding, the QB never addresses that side of the field.  It's hard to see the entire flow of the play because of all the edits, but by the time I see a hold and make the glance to the QB to see if he is considering that receiver...I see the QB is looking to the other side then scrambles.  Even on the tight shot you see he never considered that side.

I agree that the action is a foul, but does this play constitute a flag? Some will say yes and some will say no.

[HoustonRef]

This thread was going strong about how important 7 man is, then I let yall know how easy this play is to call in 5 man and silence.

I should charge for these clinics. You're welcome.

[TXMike]

I don't think I would have tossed here for that reason exactly.  Take a look at the EZ shot of this play... even though you can't see the holding, the QB never addresses that side of the field.  It's hard to see the entire flow of the play because of all the edits, but by the time I see a hold and make the glance to the QB to see if he is considering that receiver...I see the QB is looking to the other side then scrambles.  Even on the tight shot you see he never considered that side.

I agree that the action is a foul, but does this play constitute a flag? Some will say yes and some will say no.

As the QB is faking the handoff to 17 he is looking to the right.  He continues looking there briefly but looks away when he realizes he is not going to get anything there.  Just after the hold is obvious, the QB starts his scramble.

[BlindZebra]

As the QB is faking the handoff to 17 he is looking to the right.  He continues looking there briefly but looks away when he realizes he is not going to get anything there.  Just after the hold is obvious, the QB starts his scramble.

Agree, but very brief and before the foul occurred.  And by the time you get to the QB after the foul to see where he is going, he is not addressing that side.  If I didn't throw and I got a downgrade for this, then it's a fabulous learning play.  But I don't see any reason to throw.

[Etref]

This thread was going strong about how important 7 man is, then I let yall know how easy this play is to call in 5 man and silence.

I should charge for these clinics. You're welcome.

Thank you Mr. Perfect!     

[DonM]

I agree that 7 is the way to go, even 6 would be better with the pass oriented offenses. However, it is still a numbers thing in most of the smaller chapters. Heck, there was a thread on here earlier this year about chapters having to give away games because they do not have enough people to cover what they have, must less with two additional officials per crew.

But it is a double edged sword, with more "games" some of the younger officials can join a crew, get games and possibly stay instead of 1 or 2 years and gone because they only get sub-varsity games.

Our chapter would fit in the "give away games...do not have enough people" category.  I don't know what the total number of games was that we had to give away, but the number INCLUDED some playoff games in the early rounds.

We send out several 4-man crews for 11-man games and have sent some 3-man crews for varsity six-man.  If we did not assign short crews, we'd have to give away more games.

And, we DO send 1st year guys to varsity games.  No choice, or again, we'd give away some more games.

Going to 7 is 100% infeasible for us.  At least until a couple of weeks deep into the playoffs.

[JasonTX]

We are in the same boat as DonM.  Our rookies will work anywhere from 5-10 varsity games.  We even had one that was requested by name to work a semi-final playoff game.  If any of you still count your points for Division points, it usually takes our guys less than 10 years to make Div. 1.  In total we had 4 rookies work a playoff game this year and all 4 were requested by name by the coaches.

[Joe Stack]

I wonder if TASO would be willing to loosen the rule about allowing officials to work varsity games in chapters they aren't members of. I know about secondary chapter membership, but you still have to pick a "home" chapter where the official can only work playoff games through that chapter. I'm sure there is a list of willing and capable officials who could assist the small chapters covering games with a 6th or 7th official -- for regular season and playoffs.

Then, the question becomes: would the small chapters accept the help? Not questioning anyone's motives either way, just wondering if there are legitimate drawbacks.

[clearwall]

I held dual membership for a couple of years myself. It wasnt a bad gig and the smaller chapter I was in seemed happy with my services.