Author Topic: Good experience  (Read 5962 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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Good experience
« on: November 22, 2021, 06:14:40 AM »
I know I tend to whine, so I want to 'offset' that, a bit, by saying that we had an exceptional experience last Friday night.  Good teams. Big crowds (relatively speaking). Cool, but calm, dry weather. A very good plastic grass field. Very good, well played game. And - drum roll, please - OUTSTANDING clock operators. The young lady working the play clock was perfect. I wish we could have her on the play clock every week.
Easy trip. Easy game. No stress. It was ALL good.

We'll get to try again this weekend. Hope all goes as well. Hope it does for all of you, too.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2021, 08:44:19 AM »
I had two teams playing at a neutral site.  We knew we had problems at the opening kickoff when the play clock operator didn't start the clock on the ready, then set it on 40 after the kickoff and left it there.  Within two series, I stopped the game and fired him.  I told both coaches and one was quite upset saying they paid for a turnkey operation, including experienced clock operators.  I told him he should get his money back, but in the mean time, the play clocks are being turned off. 

Offline CosmoKramer

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2021, 08:57:41 AM »
I had two teams playing at a neutral site.  We knew we had problems at the opening kickoff when the play clock operator didn't start the clock on the ready, then set it on 40 after the kickoff and left it there.  Within two series, I stopped the game and fired him.  I told both coaches and one was quite upset saying they paid for a turnkey operation, including experienced clock operators.  I told him he should get his money back, but in the mean time, the play clocks are being turned off.

Doc, I'm happy to read that you fired the play clock operator.  I've done that before as well only to have that individual come into the locker room at halftime and ask why?  It was very gratifying, at that time, to be able to tell him it's because he doesn't know what he's doing and causing problems with the game flow.  He then tried to tell us that we don't understand when the play clock is supposed to start after every play.  We simply laughed at him and ended the discussion with me saying "thanks for proving my point".  It's so frustrating when a venue uses clock operators who refuse to know what needs to be done correctly.

Offline Txgarza

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2021, 10:52:10 AM »
At my sons playoff game this pat Friday, the R would set the play clock to 40 (double hand pump) after a change of position. I told the PCO he was right and I knew he was only doing what he was told. He shrugged his shoulders. There were other issues with this crew but I’ll leave it at that. Another note, my playoff game week 1 the coach was arguing that the play clock was starting too fast. He said the ball wasn’t even set by the U yet when it started. I was a little shocked but relayed how it worked in between plays. I don’t think he believed me.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2021, 11:24:44 AM »
Is it time to give the B a remote play clock start/stop switch?  I think so.

Offline CosmoKramer

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2021, 12:19:00 PM »
At my sons playoff game this pat Friday, the R would set the play clock to 40 (double hand pump) after a change of position. I told the PCO he was right and I knew he was only doing what he was told. He shrugged his shoulders. There were other issues with this crew but I’ll leave it at that. Another note, my playoff game week 1 the coach was arguing that the play clock was starting too fast. He said the ball wasn’t even set by the U yet when it started. I was a little shocked but relayed how it worked in between plays. I don’t think he believed me.

You bring up another point that simply amazes me as well.  That being, too many times we see a crew assigned to a playoff game that gets this little stuff completely wrong.  From clock management to simple penalty enforcement.  I'm not talking about more complicated penalty enforcement but basic football 101.  Like observing a crew blow a kickoff dead because the kicking team was offside at the kick.  Then watching the same crew tell a coach that if a player gives a fair catch signal but the ball hits the ground, that fair catch is no longer in play and the ball can be advanced by the receiving team. Yes, both happened in a playoff game. So frustrating.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2021, 12:29:52 PM »
Is it time to give the B a remote play clock start/stop switch?  I think so.

If that’s the route we go, I’d give it to the R. He knows when he wants it pumped, take out the middle man altogether.

Offline CosmoKramer

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2021, 12:33:54 PM »
If that’s the route we go, I’d give it to the R. He knows when he wants it pumped, take out the middle man altogether.

I disagree.  It should be in the hands of B.  If the R wants it pumped, he gives the respective pump signal that the B then uses to pump. This way the coaches also have the opportunity to see the R give the pump. 

Offline slo8140

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 12:40:40 PM »
Yep....I went to a 6A playoff game on Saturday....we had a 10 sec. runoff when the clock was not hot...it should have been hot, but no one ever signaled for it to start after a first down. Very weird deal.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 12:51:54 PM »
I disagree.  It should be in the hands of B.  If the R wants it pumped, he gives the respective pump signal that the B then uses to pump. This way the coaches also have the opportunity to see the R give the pump.

And with radios, it's easy to tell the B to start, reset, etc.  Just an idea whose time has come. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2021, 01:14:14 PM »
Yet another manifestation of the UIL assignment policy. There are some (many?) TASO guys - especially those that were around before the 40-second play clock - that do not want to hurry a team after a kickoff, or on a try, for fear of the dreaded Delay of Game, thus, drawing the ire of the offending team's coach, and risking future assignments to that school. So, knowing that the CO / PCO is told to do as instructed by the R - right or wrong - those Rs will tell the PCO to hold the 40-second clock after Kickoffs and on Tries until a) the ball is spotted, or b) until he signals to start it. Completely adverse to the rules, of course. Those guys will say something like, "Well, that's a college rule and the coaches don't like it." Guess what? The UIL - made up 100% of coaches/ADs/Superintendents - have the ability and ANNUAL opportunity to take exception to those rules. But they haven't. That says the coaches that are in charge of coaches are OK with this rule, and we are to use the rules as written, with the UIL exceptions that HAVE been adopted.
It is those guys that make life difficult for those of us that try to do the job right.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the CO / PCO system we have, other than to push the issue with the UIL of having all COs and PCOs attend training, and work scrimmages. As part of that, the teams need to be required to run a timed period in every scrimmage (even if just 8 minutes or so), to give their COs/PCOs, and us, a chance to practice clock management.
I don't want to manage the play clock on the field.  So, so much better and more effective if it is done by a competent PCO. But, that is the trick - getting competent PCOs.

Next up: Getting the UIL to require field mics at all stadia. (And LAPEL style mics.) They make a huge difference.

Uh oh. I'm back to whining.  :)

Offline CosmoKramer

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2021, 01:31:06 PM »
Yet another manifestation of the UIL assignment policy. There are some (many?) TASO guys - especially those that were around before the 40-second play clock - that do not want to hurry a team after a kickoff, or on a try, for fear of the dreaded Delay of Game, thus, drawing the ire of the offending team's coach, and risking future assignments to that school. So, knowing that the CO / PCO is told to do as instructed by the R - right or wrong - those Rs will tell the PCO to hold the 40-second clock after Kickoffs and on Tries until a) the ball is spotted, or b) until he signals to start it. Completely adverse to the rules, of course. Those guys will say something like, "Well, that's a college rule and the coaches don't like it." Guess what? The UIL - made up 100% of coaches/ADs/Superintendents - have the ability and ANNUAL opportunity to take exception to those rules. But they haven't. That says the coaches that are in charge of coaches are OK with this rule, and we are to use the rules as written, with the UIL exceptions that HAVE been adopted.
It is those guys that make life difficult for those of us that try to do the job right.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the CO / PCO system we have, other than to push the issue with the UIL of having all COs and PCOs attend training, and work scrimmages. As part of that, the teams need to be required to run a timed period in every scrimmage (even if just 8 minutes or so), to give their COs/PCOs, and us, a chance to practice clock management.
I don't want to manage the play clock on the field.  So, so much better and more effective if it is done by a competent PCO. But, that is the trick - getting competent PCOs.

Next up: Getting the UIL to require field mics at all stadia. (And LAPEL style mics.) They make a huge difference.

Uh oh. I'm back to whining.  :)

Personally, I would love to have a field mic required at all stadiums/fields.  But now you just opened up the discussion as to the training of all officials (or referee's) on proper mic mechanics.  It's comical enough that so many do not know the rules I can only imagine those same individuals attempting to get on a microphone and provide an explaination.   hEaDbAnG

Offline Txgarza

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2021, 01:37:07 PM »
You bring up another point that simply amazes me as well.  That being, too many times we see a crew assigned to a playoff game that gets this little stuff completely wrong.  From clock management to simple penalty enforcement.  I'm not talking about more complicated penalty enforcement but basic football 101.  Like observing a crew blow a kickoff dead because the kicking team was offside at the kick.  Then watching the same crew tell a coach that if a player gives a fair catch signal but the ball hits the ground, that fair catch is no longer in play and the ball can be advanced by the receiving team. Yes, both happened in a playoff game. So frustrating.

It just frustrates me so much. The crew working my sons game had many simple errors. Now the crew didn’t cost us the game. The other team was definitely better than ours. But just simple enforcements and mechanics weren’t done right. It makes me wonder how many other times they’ve done this to other teams and still choose not to get it right.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2021, 02:23:03 PM »
Personally, I would love to have a field mic required at all stadiums/fields.  But now you just opened up the discussion as to the training of all officials (or referee's) on proper mic mechanics.  It's comical enough that so many do not know the rules I can only imagine those same individuals attempting to get on a microphone and provide an explaination.   hEaDbAnG

Referee Announcements are near and dear to me. Walt Anderson’s presentation on announcements was good, but the key is practice. During my FBS years, I would practice announcements constantly. Driving down the road, daydreaming at work, sitting around after dinner, while trying to fall asleep in bed, I would imagine fouls getting reported to me and how I would announce them. Especially unusual and multiple fouls. But not just fouls. Forward fumbles OB. Helmet off. Clock adjustments. Even mundane things like “That’s the end of the first period.”
Yeah, back then, I got to use a microphone every week. Only get them about 4-5 times per season, now. The typical TASO R probably only gets a mic 2 or 3 times per season (if that much).
My point is that Rs should make every announcement as though they have a mic. Then, when they do have one, they don’t miss a beat. Practice all types af announcements, even if you will be working in Bumfrick, Texas, where they are excited because they finally got lights for their stadium. No, you may not have a mic that week, but, your next assignment just might be a place that has a referee’s field mic.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2021, 06:24:31 PM »
Guess what? The UIL - made up 100% of coaches/ADs/Superintendents - have the ability and ANNUAL opportunity to take exception to those rules. But they haven't. That says the coaches that are in charge of coaches are OK with this rule, and we are to use the rules as written, with the UIL exceptions that HAVE been adopted.

I'm not in the UIL or have any skin in that game, but I would point out that the coaches/ADs/Superintendents aren't approving of the *rule* so much as they're approving of the way it's enforced.

If they know a white hat isn't going to start the :40 to hurry a team for a kickoff or a try, and they don't, then that's the actual rule so there's no need to change it.

The only way they'll vote to change the rules is if the officials start enforcing them as written.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2021, 08:02:08 PM »
As long as officials are selected by coaches, the vast majority of officials will not see this as a hill worth dying on, knowing it will cost them future games.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2021, 09:15:58 PM »
I'm not in the UIL or have any skin in that game, but I would point out that the coaches/ADs/Superintendents aren't approving of the *rule* so much as they're approving of the way it's enforced.

If they know a white hat isn't going to start the :40 to hurry a team for a kickoff or a try, and they don't, then that's the actual rule so there's no need to change it.

The only way they'll vote to change the rules is if the officials start enforcing them as written.

NC, no offense, but, one of us doesn’t understand the other. The governing body for high school Athletics in Texas is the University Interscholastic League (UIL), which is composed of virtually exclusively coaches, ADs, and superintendents (most of whom are ex-coaches). For football, the UIL has adopted the NCAA Football Playing Rules, but with ‘Exceptions’ to a number of NCAA rules that either completely eliminate those rules, or modify them in some way.
For example, the UIL has an Exception that eliminates the rule that re-starts the game clock after a BC, or the ball, is declared out of bounds, outside of 2 mins in the 2nd and 4th periods.
For another example, the UIL has an Exception that modifies the rules regarding ‘disqualifications’ and ‘ejections,’ such that there are no player ‘ejections.’ Players may be disqualified for flagrant personal fouls, but they may remain in the team area, whereas, in NCAA, a player committing a flagrant personal foul is ejected, and must leave the playing enclosure.
So, in the case of the play clock, the UIL has NO exceptions. None. They follow the NCAA rule 100%. The UIL - those coaches/ADs/Superintendents - have consciously chosen to follow the NCAA rules regarding the play clock. 
So, yes, the coaches ‘approve’ the rules.
Game officials are expected to apply the play clock rules as written in the NCAA Rules Book, just like all other rules in the book to which the UIL has no ‘exception,’ as well as their exceptions.
Now, understand that the institutions (schools) must mutually agree on game officials. So, if an official makes a call that a coach doesn’t like, the coach can ‘scratch’ that official from future assignments, even those already assigned.  Especially if that coach is with a team that draws large crowds (thus, higher game fees) there is the potential for an official to ‘pass’ on calls that would go against that team, or even make calls that would help that team. So, if a team tends to want to huddle around the numbers following a kickoff, and take 20-25 seconds before they even move to the ball, then call signals, check with the sideline, yada, yada, and the next thing they know the play clock is down to 2 seconds, and their angry coach has to call a TO, and then he proceeds to verbally light up the crew about the play clock (that’s a college rule - we don’t need that rule - you need to reset the play clock) and states that they’ll never work a game for his school ever again, that just might influence the R, in particular, to order the PCO to modify the play clock procedures, so that coach doesn’t get upset, and he doesn’t get scratched.
Sadly, that has happened, and is happening.
Then there are those of us that refuse to be swayed by coaches, and enforce the rules as directed by the UIL. Then we get the ol’, “That’s not how they did it last week!” And we get scratched for doing things right.

It’s a horrid, conflict-of-interest ridden official assignment policy, but it would most likely literally take state legislative action to change. Been that way at least 50 years.

Offline CosmoKramer

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2021, 08:16:45 AM »
NC, no offense, but, one of us doesn’t understand the other. The governing body for high school Athletics in Texas is the University Interscholastic League (UIL), which is composed of virtually exclusively coaches, ADs, and superintendents (most of whom are ex-coaches). For football, the UIL has adopted the NCAA Football Playing Rules, but with ‘Exceptions’ to a number of NCAA rules that either completely eliminate those rules, or modify them in some way.
For example, the UIL has an Exception that eliminates the rule that re-starts the game clock after a BC, or the ball, is declared out of bounds, outside of 2 mins in the 2nd and 4th periods.
For another example, the UIL has an Exception that modifies the rules regarding ‘disqualifications’ and ‘ejections,’ such that there are no player ‘ejections.’ Players may be disqualified for flagrant personal fouls, but they may remain in the team area, whereas, in NCAA, a player committing a flagrant personal foul is ejected, and must leave the playing enclosure.
So, in the case of the play clock, the UIL has NO exceptions. None. They follow the NCAA rule 100%. The UIL - those coaches/ADs/Superintendents - have consciously chosen to follow the NCAA rules regarding the play clock. 
So, yes, the coaches ‘approve’ the rules.
Game officials are expected to apply the play clock rules as written in the NCAA Rules Book, just like all other rules in the book to which the UIL has no ‘exception,’ as well as their exceptions.
Now, understand that the institutions (schools) must mutually agree on game officials. So, if an official makes a call that a coach doesn’t like, the coach can ‘scratch’ that official from future assignments, even those already assigned.  Especially if that coach is with a team that draws large crowds (thus, higher game fees) there is the potential for an official to ‘pass’ on calls that would go against that team, or even make calls that would help that team. So, if a team tends to want to huddle around the numbers following a kickoff, and take 20-25 seconds before they even move to the ball, then call signals, check with the sideline, yada, yada, and the next thing they know the play clock is down to 2 seconds, and their angry coach has to call a TO, and then he proceeds to verbally light up the crew about the play clock (that’s a college rule - we don’t need that rule - you need to reset the play clock) and states that they’ll never work a game for his school ever again, that just might influence the R, in particular, to order the PCO to modify the play clock procedures, so that coach doesn’t get upset, and he doesn’t get scratched.
Sadly, that has happened, and is happening.
Then there are those of us that refuse to be swayed by coaches, and enforce the rules as directed by the UIL. Then we get the ol’, “That’s not how they did it last week!” And we get scratched for doing things right.

It’s a horrid, conflict-of-interest ridden official assignment policy, but it would most likely literally take state legislative action to change. Been that way at least 50 years.

Great comments and dialogue here.  But not to get too far of the subject of this thread officials/crews do not get scratched because of the play clock.  Officials/crews get scratched because #1) their inability to manage a game and communicate with the coaches effectively.  They get confrontational with the coaches. #2) because they notoriously make incorrect calls and notoriously have terrible judgement on when to make the call.  Note, I use the word "notoriously" to represent there's a pattern. 


Offline TexDoc

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2021, 09:29:48 AM »
My chapter has had a number of new / newer officials that would go out and work chains and clock, but we are getting so short that we don't send out chain crews on a normal basis any longer and it seems like we  don't have enough to fill all of the clock positions either.  So, the schools are told we cannot provide them and they wind up having to get someone from the school or community willing to run one of the clocks.  I've had more problems with play clocks this year than any year since we started using them.  I've had 3 games this year where we had to turn them off because they were being run so poorly. 

I don't know the answer but if it continues to get worse, we have to be creative, like giving the switch to someone on the field. 

Offline psv

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2021, 09:51:10 AM »
I 100% agree about giving the B a switch.  We had a scheduling snafu for our game Friday and the PCO was, not good...  Fortunately about middle of the second quarter, the chapter guy showed up and all was well :)


Offline TxJim

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2021, 11:20:14 AM »
My chapter has had a number of new / newer officials that would go out and work chains and clock, but we are getting so short that we don't send out chain crews on a normal basis any longer and it seems like we  don't have enough to fill all of the clock positions either.  So, the schools are told we cannot provide them and they wind up having to get someone from the school or community willing to run one of the clocks.  I've had more problems with play clocks this year than any year since we started using them.  I've had 3 games this year where we had to turn them off because they were being run so poorly. 

I don't know the answer but if it continues to get worse, we have to be creative, like giving the switch to someone on the field.
Agree Doc. This was a particularly bad year for GC and PC operations in my games, 2 of every 3 games it seemed.
Sportsmanship is contagious - Let's have an epidemic!

Offline sj

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2021, 01:46:06 PM »
Not a Texas guy so don't have a vote there but we have one school that has the switch that they give to the back judge to run the play clock and we liked it.

Also this might be a good thread to ask a question about play clock mechanics. The standard mechanic is that if there needs to be a reset the B signals to the R who, if he agrees, then signals the play clock operator. And of course the play clock operator is to watch the R and reset only if the R says to do so.

Has it ever been considered to change the mechanic so that a reset can be done without having the Referee involved?

One problem that comes up is that when the B is signaling to the R the R is busy with something else. So the B has to keep working to get his attention. As a result the B’s attention is taken off the players a bit. O2O is a big help here but not 100%.

I don’t believe I’ve ever had an R not agree with me to reset but I have had times when the R didn’t see me due to his attention justifiably being elsewhere.

Would it be more efficient if the R was just left out of it and play clock operator would reset off of the B’s signal instead?  What would be the downside?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2021, 09:51:13 AM »
Well, it happened again, but, thankfully, with much better results.
Same 6A venue as last year, and third week of playoffs, again. Regular game clock operator, but a play clock operator that had never done it before. And this is even after I had reminded the school board President - a professional acquaintance - of the need for an experienced play clock operator.
Well, they both met us at our dressing room. Nice people, but, when I asked the play clock operator, “You’ve done this before, right?” he answered, “No.” I wanted to freak out, but I kept my composure. We reviewed the play clock operation, as best we could. They tried to “reassure” me by telling me that he was one of their coaches. Woo hoo. Like that automatically qualifies him to run a play clock. As a licensed Architect, I’ve been observing construction for 45 years, but that doesn’t make me qualified to operate a backhoe or a crane.
I fully expected us to be keeping the play clock on the field within three game minutes.
I was pleasantly surprised. By and large, he did fine. Had to remind him with a few signals throughout the game (like, only a 25, and start on my signal, after a punt - not a 40/automatic). But, most importantly, he paid attention and learned quickly. I am pleased to report that the play clock was not an issue in this game.
But, it still boggles my mind that we can be three weeks deep into playoffs, at a 6A venue, and we have a play clock operator that has never done it before. Heck, the girl at the 2A site from last week was available - call her!
We still gotta have the UIL address this.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2021, 06:02:16 PM »
My crew worked Gordon Wood Stadium Friday and I had a great experience with the clock operators.  They were very good.  It was very refreshing to have guys that actually had experience and knew exactly what they were doing.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Good experience
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2021, 07:04:03 PM »
I would like to see 3rd round and beyond be officials on the clocks.   Bring your own clock guys with the crew.