Author Topic: Kick down ruling  (Read 307 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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Kick down ruling
« on: May 30, 2022, 05:01:18 PM »
Try this:

3/10, A-3, 3:00 (4), A=10, B=3.
A11 attempts "quick kick" from his end zone. B99 blocks the ball which falls to the ground in the end zone. A11 then kicks the rolling ball which travels into the field of play and goes out of bounds at the A-8.

Ruling:

(Don't be in a hurry.)



Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2022, 05:39:20 PM »
A11 illegally kicks the loose ball, which doesn't change its status: since it was loose, and went OOB forward of the fumble/loss of possession spot, the ball will be returned that spot, which is in the EZ.  Usually penalty is 10 yard plus LOD.  However, that spot is in the EZ, which means this could be a safety. (depending on accepted/declined.)

6-4-13: Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team (yes)
other than kickcatch interference (Rule 6-4) during a scrimmage kick play (except field-goal attempts) (yes)
in which the ball crosses the neutral zone (yes)
may be enforced either at the previous spot with the down repeated (Exception: Penalty option is a safety for fouls in Team A’s end zone.)
or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B. (not applicable as B does not have possession)

So if this fouls is accepted, result of the play is a safety.  Given time/score, B's coach may decline this, so that 6-4-7 comes into play:

ARTICLE 7. If a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds between the goal lines, or if it comes to rest inbounds and no player attempts to secure it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot.

By this rule, because A was essentially ceding possession for field position, B should be awarded possession at that spot.


So options for Coach B are:

A's ball 4/13.5 at the 1.5

or

B's ball 1/G from the 8.

This one was challenging for me, had to look some of it up... tried to show my work/logic as well; hopefully I am on the right track.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 05:41:14 PM by dammitbobby »

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2022, 07:42:26 PM »


6-4-13: Penalties for all fouls by the kicking team (yes)
other than kickcatch interference (Rule 6-4) during a scrimmage kick play (except field-goal attempts) (yes)
in which the ball crosses the neutral zone (yes)
may be enforced either at the previous spot with the down repeated (Exception: Penalty option is a safety for fouls in Team A’s end zone.)
or at the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B. (not applicable as B does not have possession)

Who does the ball belong to at the end of the down?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2022, 08:59:02 PM »
I posted this down to illustrate what I thought might be a difference with the rules for the ‘other’ brand of high school football. But, it now appears their rules align with ours.

The status of the ball remains a kick, even though A11 commits a foul for “illegally kicking the ball” after his legal punt is blocked. So, when the loose ball eventually travels out of bounds (beyond the NZ), the natural result of the down is simply a scrimmage kick out of bounds. By rule, when a scrimmage kick goes out of bounds (beyond or behind the NZ), the ball belongs to Team B at the out of bounds spot.
Now, as for the foul for illegally kicking the ball, that’s 3 & 1 enforcement from the Basic Spot. The Basic Spot is the previous spot on scrimmage kick plays. The spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. Well, the spot of the foul is in the end zone, so, the result of the penalty is a safety (2 points for B, with a free kick by A from the A-20 to follow).
So, does Team B want to accept the penalty for the safety for 2 points, and hope for good field position after the free kick? Or, do they want to refuse the safety and have the penalty enforced where the dead-ball belongs to B? That would give Team B 1/G from the B-4.
I would guess B, 1/10, B-4. But, we gotta get the coach’s choice.

From more recent discussion on the “General” forum, it seems the other set of rules aligns with these rulings.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 04:51:01 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2022, 09:05:37 PM »
Who does the ball belong to at the end of the down?

So it should be B...  I was writing as I was rationalizing and didn't go back to update that thought.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2022, 07:02:09 AM »
And, to expound and clarify, had the loose ball (loose from the original legal scrimmage kick - that status never changed after the ball was punted) NEVER crossed the neutral zone, there would have been no option to penalize at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to B. That only applies to legal scrimmage kicks that cross the NZ (and free kick plays, too, but we're talkin' scrimmage kicks, here).

On the subject of the ball failing to cross the NZ, let's say the ball went OB at the A-2 (having never crossed the NZ). Some may say, "Well, it was only 3rd down. If Team B were to decline the penalty (for a safety), since the ball didn't cross the neutral, shouldn't it be A's ball, 4th down, where it went OB? No. The down number doesn't matter. By rule, any time a legal scrimmage kick goes OB, the ball is dead where it crosses the sideline and belongs to Team B at that spot - regardless of what down it had been at the snap. Team B may well want to refuse the safety by declining the penalty, and take the ball at the A-2, in hopes of scoring a TD, with, perhaps, a 2-point TD on the Try, to win the game.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2022, 10:10:45 AM »
So I was pretty close - biggest difference I see, is that you enforced the penalty from the OOB (the 8) to the 4, whereas I had it as just at the 8... what I've not got my mind wrapped around yet, is how B can decline the safety, yet still accept the foul?  I just assumed that declining one aspect automatically declined the other. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kick down ruling
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2022, 10:33:05 AM »
10-2-4 allows Team B to have the penalty enforced at the previous spot, or with the previous spot as the Basic Spot (although it doesn't actually say that - it should), or at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to B, at the option of B.

I would like to see 10-2-4 edited to say"...either at the previous spot (with the previous spot as the Basic Spot for 3 & 1 fouls), or at the subsequent spot where the dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B. (Exception: Penalty option is a safety for fouls in Team A's end zone.)

Note that they say "Penalty OPTION is a safety..."  Yeah, they kinda get to have their cake and eat it too. But, this is what the rules committee decided to do many years ago, to keep the game moving, and not to have to repeat 4th down punts.