Author Topic: Kicking the ball out of frustration  (Read 903 times)

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Offline dammitbobby

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Kicking the ball out of frustration
« on: September 21, 2022, 01:55:11 PM »
4th quarter, Team A is well ahead in score. Team A punts the ball on 4th down to run out the clock.  Team A does not have anyone downfield to pursue.  B22 approaches the bounding ball that is almost stopped, but still moving, and out of frustration kicks the ball from the far hash towards the near sideline, across the field, 1) narrowly missing the BJ, 2)hitting the BJ in the face, causing him to leave the game.

Outside of a foul for illegal kicking, what else could be applicable here?

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2022, 03:30:35 PM »
4th quarter, Team A is well ahead in score. Team A punts the ball on 4th down to run out the clock.  Team A does not have anyone downfield to pursue.  B22 approaches the bounding ball that is almost stopped, but still moving, and out of frustration kicks the ball from the far hash towards the near sideline, across the field, 1) narrowly missing the BJ, 2)hitting the BJ in the face, causing him to leave the game.

Outside of a foul for illegal kicking, what else could be applicable here?
You said right running out the clock. If clock ran out I've got nothing. If my B can't avoid a ball kicked from across the field well


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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2022, 03:40:17 PM »
In the video I have of this (but cannot post), B was about 5 yards away when he booted it directly towards the official, and almost hit him.  Question was posed to determine if there would be a difference if it just missed him, or busted his face.

Offline Bulldog75

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2022, 03:46:19 PM »
Unsportsmanlike conduct?  Or delay of game?  Was the game clock running out during the play?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2022, 04:03:59 PM »
Sounds like the clock expired during the down, but the ball was still moving, thus, still alive. This is actually pretty easy. I'd go Flagrant UNS on B22, regardless if he hit the B or not. That way he is DQd, so that we can send in an incident report, and, hopefully, he learns not to ever do that, or anything like it, again. Team A will decline the penalty, to end the game, and everybody goes home.
If he hit the B, I would hope that my Chapter officers would lobby for a suspension, or some other punitive action by the School, District, or UIL to discourage this type of behavior.

 

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2022, 10:22:39 PM »
What would the rule support for the UNS be? 

Offline TexasProud

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2022, 09:11:36 AM »
Sounds like the clock expired during the down, but the ball was still moving, thus, still alive. This is actually pretty easy. I'd go Flagrant UNS on B22, regardless if he hit the B or not. That way he is DQd, so that we can send in an incident report, and, hopefully, he learns not to ever do that, or anything like it, again. Team A will decline the penalty, to end the game, and everybody goes home.
If he hit the B, I would hope that my Chapter officers would lobby for a suspension, or some other punitive action by the School, District, or UIL to discourage this type of behavior.

Only the officials in the game can provide an opinion towards the intent of the player.  Was he frustrated with the officiating, team play, etc.?  I agree with the ejection and especially if the crew feels the frustration was directed towards them.  Some may say it doesn't matter if it was directed towards them or not, and I understand that thought, but I do believe it matters a little because of the repercussions that follows an ejection.  But if an ejection is warranted then by all means get it done.  However, I do not agree with the comment stating the chapter officers should lobby for a suspension.  Once we issue the ejection and complete the incident report, we are done.  It's out of our hands and no longer any of our business how the team, school, district or UIL issues punishment.  Just like it's not a player, coach or fans business how an official is held accountable within a chapter when they do wrong.   

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2022, 11:57:54 AM »
What would the rule support for the UNS be?

9-2-1, and/or 9-2-4.
While 9-2-1 lists specific acts of UNS, those are not not all-inclusive. Any action that we determine to be unsportsmanlike - and I would hope that we would all agree that this act is clearly a deliberate act that is demeaning to the image of the game - should be flagged and penalized as UNS. And, if the ball strikes an an official, we should elevate it to Flagrant. You 'could' elevate it to flagrant, if it hits a player (or anyone else, for that matter). But definitely if it hits an official.

Quoting Wong, "What? You wanted more?"

Regarding "lobbying" for a suspension: What? You don't think coaches call Elza, et al, regarding officiating errors (real or perceived), wanting punitive action? Wake up. But, I do agree that such lobbying should be done through proper channels (i.e., through TASO), and, perhaps, not directly to the school/district/UIL. I retract that part of my statement.

Offline TexasProud

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2022, 12:19:57 PM »
9-2-1, and/or 9-2-4.
While 9-2-1 lists specific acts of UNS, those are not not all-inclusive. Any action that we determine to be unsportsmanlike - and I would hope that we would all agree that this act is clearly a deliberate act that is demeaning to the image of the game - should be flagged and penalized as UNS. And, if the ball strikes an an official, we should elevate it to Flagrant. You 'could' elevate it to flagrant, if it hits a player (or anyone else, for that matter). But definitely if it hits an official.

Quoting Wong, "What? You wanted more?"

Regarding "lobbying" for a suspension: What? You don't think coaches call Elza, et al, regarding officiating errors (real or perceived), wanting punitive action? Wake up. But, I do agree that such lobbying should be done through proper channels (i.e., through TASO), and, perhaps, not directly to the school/district/UIL. I retract that part of my statement.

So if a player scores a touchdown and, from their excitement, spikes the ball like they see on Sunday television, we are obviously going to flag that as a UNS.  But if that spiked ball then happens to accidently hit an opposing player or official you're going to proceed with making that a flagrant UNS and eject the player?  I know this sounds like an exaggeration but it's in essence what you're saying. 

Regarding Dr. Elza, I have no doubt coaches contact the UIL and/or TASO regarding officiating errors and want punitive action considered.  But I stand by what I said and that being whatever punishment that is handed down is none of the coaches business after they've reported it to the UIL.  We, as officials, report the issue to the UIL and from their it is none of our business what punishment is handed down either.  Neither you nor I can stop a coach from reporting it to the UIL and the pushing and pursuing of further action.  We also cannot stop that coach from further following up (or lobbying) with any of the listed organizations wanting to know what punishment was handed down but it's still none of their business after it's been reported.  They simply need to scratch that official, crew and possibly chapter and move on.  There shouldn't be any lobbying by any party whatsoever. 





Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2022, 12:52:34 PM »
and eject the player?

No. I will never eject a UIL player.

Offline Etref

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2022, 01:00:30 PM »
But he will disqualify one, correct?
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Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2022, 01:31:32 PM »
Personally I would not support an ejection unless the officials thought the player kicked it at somebody intentionally. UNS for sure, but simply kicking the ball out of frustration should not be enough to eject a player.

And yes you absolutely do eject a player in UIL games for anything that would have an ejection in NCAA. There is a difference between a disqualification for targeting and an ejection for other fouls. While they don’t have to leave the team area like NCAA, they do miss the first half of the next game if they are ejected.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2022, 02:03:01 PM »
https://youtu.be/JSTF_J90swo finally was able to upload.

edit:  I don't know why the quality is so bad, seeing if I can fix.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 02:09:13 PM by dammitbobby »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2022, 07:22:51 PM »
https://youtu.be/JSTF_J90swo finally was able to upload. 

edit:  I don't know why the quality is so bad, seeing if I can fix.

The video is good enough. It clearly shows a player who needs to learn self control. Absolutely no football play reason for him to kick the ball. It is simply a player that feels he can do whatever he wants, with no repercussion. That's the UNS.
Kicking it toward another human being, other than a teammate, with not even the most remote strategic or tactical motive related to football, is nothing but raw disrespect, AND dangerous. That rises to the level of flagrant, resulting in his ejection. This is especially true in a situation like this, when time expires during the down, and the distance penalty will be declined.
OK, yeah, it is called an ejection, although he doesn't have to leave the team area by UIL Exception, so I will stand reminded and corrected on that point. But, he deserves an ejection, which, in theory, requires that he miss not only the rest of that game, but the first half of the next game. Then maybe he'll think twice about doing something so foolish, unnecessary, and disrespectful to the game again.
This game needs a return to discipline, and this type of act is a perfect example of this loss of discipline. And that starts at the top. You know darn well that, without some sort of external encouragement, his coach won't do anything to discourage this behavior by this player or others on his team in the future. So, it is left to us to maintain some modicum of respect and dignity in this sport. Ruling a flagrant UNS, resulting in an ejection, is the most we can do to help protect and preserve this game that is in such moral decline at this time. I'll do my part. Will you?

Good luck to all as we move forward.



Offline Bulldog75

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2022, 01:06:26 PM »
In the video, Team A player is the one who kicks the ball towards the official, right?  We don't swap designation mid-play.  His team was winning, why was he frustrated?  Or his team was losing and punted on the last play instead of running one more offensive play?  I'm guessing the latter or Team B would have tried to return the punt.

The ball remains live after being illegally kicked, and would be dead when it crosses the sideline?  If it weren't the end of the game, would you flag illegally kicking and flagrant UNS?  Team B would get the ball 25 yards from the spot where it was illegally kicked?


Illegally Kicking Ball
ARTICLE 4. A player shall not kick a loose ball, a forward pass or a ball being
held for a place kick by an opponent. These illegal acts do not change the status
of the loose ball or forward pass; but if the player holding the ball for a place
kick loses possession during a scrimmage down, it is a fumble and a loose ball;
if during a free kick, the ball remains dead (A.R. 8-7-2-IV and A. R. 9-4-1-XI).
PENALTY—10 yards, plus loss of down for fouls by Team A if the loss
of down is not in conflict with other rules [S31 and S9]
(Exception: No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal
scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone).

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2022, 01:53:32 PM »
Yes, I meant Team A, not B.  Simple typo. Good catch.

This was last play of the game, and A was down 20-7. 

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Kicking the ball out of frustration
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2022, 02:51:06 PM »

Team B would get the ball 25 yards from the spot where it was illegally kicked?


Are you suggesting there would be two fouls?  But for penalty enforcement, team B could elect to have the penalty enforced at the previous spot or get the ball with the penalty enforced from the spot where the dead ball belongs to them and that would be where it went out of bounds.  It would not be from the spot it was illegally kicked from.  Considering they were winning and time expired, the penalty would likely be declined, and we exit the field.