Author Topic: Pat block behind LOS what’s next  (Read 2098 times)

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Offline jra104

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Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« on: October 22, 2024, 08:48:25 PM »
Here’s the situation: Pat blocked, ball still behind the LOS, kicker recovers tosses back to holder who is standing, the holder then proceededs to throw a conversion. Legal?

Offline Etref

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2024, 08:55:35 PM »
As long as the pitch/pass from the kicker to holder was backward this is a legal play
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline jra104

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2024, 10:33:46 PM »
That’s crazy then!!!

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2024, 12:31:55 AM »
As long as the ball never crosses the neutral zone you can have any number of (legal) kicks and one forward pass in any order. You could have a kick, block, recovery by the kicker, run to the side, another kick and another block, recovery by the kicker, backward pass to a team mate, a short forward pass which does not cross the NZ, kick by the receiver, etc.

Offline DieHardCubFan

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2024, 06:15:28 PM »
I have another PAT play or you (and I already now the answer, just want to see what everyone else thinks):

On a PAT, center snaps the ball backwards, the holder gets the ball, sets it down, and the kicker "tops the ball" and it rolls forward a couple of yards (but still behind the original LOS. 

The center sees the ball, picks it up, and runs into the endzone.

Legal play?

Result?

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2024, 06:20:54 PM »
I'd say this was legal, and worth two points for A.

6-3-1-a: A scrimmage kick that fails to cross the neutral zone continues in play. All players may catch or recover the ball behind the neutral zone and advance it.

Offline DieHardCubFan

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2024, 06:34:20 PM »
I'd say this was legal, and worth two points for A.

6-3-1-a: A scrimmage kick that fails to cross the neutral zone continues in play. All players may catch or recover the ball behind the neutral zone and advance it.

Yes sir, that would be correct.  We had that play in a quarterfinal game several years ago and the coach that it was scored on (he ended up winning) could not believe that we made the correct ruling...He still brings it up whenever we come across him...

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2024, 07:17:36 PM »
That’s crazy then!!!

In what sense do you mean? Do you not think this should be allowed? If not, please explain why?

Offline jra104

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2024, 07:24:58 PM »
In what sense do you mean? Do you not think this should be allowed? If not, please explain why?
Just figured the ball has already established forward progress so a pass would not then be permitted. So I’d assume same is true for a punt, so long as there no illegal men down field.
But honestly this is why I come to this message board. Weird things happen and as a coach I’d like to be ready for them.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2024, 09:18:09 PM »
Just figured the ball has already established forward progress so a pass would not then be permitted. So I’d assume same is true for a punt, so long as there no illegal men down field.
But honestly this is why I come to this message board. Weird things happen and as a coach I’d like to be ready for them.

I greatly respect your effort to understand the rules. So few are willing to put in the time and effort to learn.
Regarding the situation you presented, forward progress isn’t established until the ball becomes dead. Blocking of the kick does not cause the ball to become dead. So, the ball remains alive, even if it crosses the neutral zone. If the legally kicked ball crosses the NZ, then Team A is not permitted to touch the ball until it is touched by Team B, and Team A may not advance the ball if they do recover the ball legally. Once the ball crosses the neutral zone, by any means, or comes into possession of Team B, it, then, may neither be legally passed forward, anywhere on the field, nor legally kicked, anywhere on the field. However, until, and unless, the ball crosses the NZ, or comes into Team B possession, the ball may be passed forward by Team A ONE TIME, and may be kicked by Team A in a legal manner (punt, drop kick, place kick) as many times as desired, until the ball crosses the NZ or comes into Team B possession. This is true for any type of scrimmage down (regular scrimmage or a try).
Those things are very rare, because of the time it would take to make them happen. The opponent will almost always have time to prevent Team A from passing or kicking the ball. But, they could.
That is all true for 11-player football. In 6-player football, once it is obvious a legal field goal attempt on a try will not score, the ball is dead.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2024, 06:50:19 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2024, 12:41:37 AM »
So I’d assume same is true for a punt, so long as there no illegal men down field.

Not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but if you are saying that you could have an illegal men downfield penalty on a scrimmage kick, that is false for NCAA-type rule sets (I think it applies only to NFL-types). Illegal men downfield (actually called ineligible receiver downfield in NCAA) only applies for forward passes that cross the neutral zone.

Offline jra104

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2024, 09:16:05 AM »
I greatly respect your effort to understand the rules. So few are willing to put in the time and effort to learn.
Regarding the situation you presented, forward progress isn’t established until the ball becomes dead. Blocking of the kick does not cause the ball to become dead. So, the ball remains alive, even if it crosses the neutral zone. If the legally kicked ball crosses the NZ, then Team A is not permitted to touch the ball until it is touched by Team B, and Team A may not advance the ball if they do recover the ball legally. Once the ball crosses the neutral zone, by any means, or comes into possession of Team B, it, then, may neither be legally passed forward, anywhere on the field, nor legally kicked, anywhere on the field. However, until, and unless, the ball crosses the NZ, or comes into Team B possession, the ball may be passed forward by Team A ONE TIME, and may be kicked by Team A in a legal manner (punt, drop kick, place kick) as many times as desired, until the ball crosses the NZ or comes into Team B possession. This is true for any type of scrimmage down (regular scrimmage or a try).
Those things are very rare, because of the time it would take to make them happen. The opponent will almost always have time to prevent Team A from passing or kicking the ball. But, they could.
That is all true for 11-player football. In 6-player football, once it is obvious a legal field goal attempt on a try will not score, the ball is dead.
That's some good stuff there!!!
What got me on this dive into the rules was back in 2012 our team had a playoff game.  As the video coordinator for our team I received a deluge of request from NCAA officials for a certain play that hadn't happened in some time.  That's the very rare 1 point safety on a PAT.  I must've sent that out to at least 50+ people.  That's when I got truly intrigued in the NCAA rule book. 
That and the fact coming from a NFHS state to Texas, the NFHS rules used to allow the scored upon team the option to kick or receive (not sure that's still there or not).

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2024, 10:54:20 AM »
That and the fact coming from a NFHS state to Texas, the NFHS rules used to allow the scored upon team the option to kick or receive (not sure that's still there or not).

NCAA also allowed this for a long time.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2024, 11:00:42 AM »
That's some good stuff there!!!
What got me on this dive into the rules was back in 2012 our team had a playoff game.  As the video coordinator for our team I received a deluge of request from NCAA officials for a certain play that hadn't happened in some time.  That's the very rare 1 point safety on a PAT.  I must've sent that out to at least 50+ people.  That's when I got truly intrigued in the NCAA rule book. 
That and the fact coming from a NFHS state to Texas, the NFHS rules used to allow the scored upon team the option to kick or receive (not sure that's still there or not).

For a very long time in NCAA football, the team that had been scored upon did, in fact, have the option to designate which team would kickoff. However, I don't think anyone had exercised that option in at least a half century, so Rogers Redding removed that from the rule (as being archaic) during his tenure as Sec-Editor of the Rules Committee.

A 1-point safety is, indeed, extremely rare, since it can only happen during a try.

Offline copedaddy

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2024, 01:54:55 PM »
I had it happen back in the mid 80's. Celina v Cooper. Celina under coach Moore was a powerhouse in 2A. Beating Cooper by more than 40 in the 3rd quarter, somehow Cooper broke one open and scored. The coach was so upset with his defense he chose to kick to keep them on the field. Needless to say Cooper didn't find the EZ the rest of the game. Never saw it happen again.

Offline jra104

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2024, 11:29:53 AM »
So my sons college team had a blocked fg attempt on 4th down.  Ball ends up hitting a defensive back beyond the LOS and the kicking team recovers... BUT the ball is recovered SHORT of the line to gain.  Is this a first down for the Defensive team? 
Thanks.

Offline JDM

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2024, 11:53:04 AM »
So my sons college team had a blocked fg attempt on 4th down.  Ball ends up hitting a defensive back beyond the LOS and the kicking team recovers... BUT the ball is recovered SHORT of the line to gain.  Is this a first down for the Defensive team? 
Thanks.

No. The continuity of downs was broken when the scrimmage kick crossed the NZ. The kick was touched by Team B, therefore any player of Team A or Team B may recover the ball and Team A is in legal possession. 1/10 for Team A (Kicking Team) from the spot of recovery.

Offline jra104

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2024, 12:30:00 PM »
Thanks... I cant find anything that specifically covers that in the rule book or case book.  The 2024 case book seems be more about reviewable plays .  Mind pointing me to the rules section? Thanks again.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Pat block behind LOS what’s next
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2024, 02:57:09 PM »
Thanks... I cant find anything that specifically covers that in the rule book or case book.  The 2024 case book seems be more about reviewable plays .  Mind pointing me to the rules section? Thanks again.

jra104, I continue to be impressed by your concern to understand the rules, in depth. Keep ‘em coming.
The “case” book is, indeed, just for replay issues. For games without replay, it is totally irrelevant.
The rule about the Continuity of Downs is 5-1-4, and the specific item for the situation you have presented is “5-1-4-b. A scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone.”
When a scrimmage kick has officially crossed the neutral zone (touched the ground, any player, an official, or anything beyond the neutral zone), the previous series of downs is over, so, regardless of which team ends up with legal team possession of the ball, the next down will be either a try (because somebody scored a TD), a kickoff (following a try), or 1st down and 10. Obviously, if Team B has possession of the ball at the end of the down, they have 1/10 (or a try). But, that could be Team A, even though they were the kicking team, if the ball was touched by Team B beyond the NZ, and then Team A recovered the kick or recovered a Team B fumble.
Of course, a penalty may change all of that that. But, in the absence of a penalty, that is how the Continuity of Downs is broken, and what happens afterward.