Author Topic: "Accountability"  (Read 17303 times)

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Offline TXMike

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"Accountability"
« on: September 14, 2010, 11:55:39 AM »
Is this the kind of "accountability" we are looking to get from UIL?  (I realize 75% of the officials in Texas would have got this right, but for the 25% who would have missed it, is this the type of "accountability" they should be subject to?)

http://www.pac-10.org/News/tabid/863/Article/134504/pac-10-penalizes-game-officials-over-virginia-usc-game.aspx

Pac-10 Penalizes Game Officials Over Virginia-USC Game

Updated 9/13/2010

WALNUT CREEK, Calif.--The Pac-10 has disciplined the officials involved in last Saturday’s Virginia-USC football game for failure to apply the playing rules correctly, Commissioner Larry Scott announced today. Those officials involved in making the call have been reprimanded and will be removed from a future game assignment.

The officials misapplied rules for blocking below the waist on a Virginia fake punt in the second quarter. According to the playing rules, blocking below the waist anywhere on the field by either team is illegal if the offense is lined up in a scrimmage kick formation, unless a kick is not made.

“The officials recognized the mistake after the fact and apologized to the Virginia coaching staff. We know mistakes are made in games, but we will not tolerate our officials misinterpreting the rules,” Scott said.

“We believe the reprimand and removal from a future assignment are appropriate,” Scott concluded.

- Pac-10 -

Offline TexDoc

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 12:01:47 PM »
If we expect a crew with about 5 years experience to go out into the country to a 1A game and always get everything right, or you're suspended, then we will have a very hard time finding officials and those games run the chance of not getting any at all.


504coach

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 12:09:34 PM »
I just want to hold a school district accountable for, "water at half time, paying us the gate percent correctly, returning dvd's, communicating to us time changes, communicating to us what happens after we fill out a UIL incident report, and turning in the evaluation cards".  Who is going to hold them accountable?  Forget 5 year experience crews going to 1A games if you have that much experience you will atleast be covering a 4A game if the UIL has their way.

rickref

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 01:13:59 PM »
D-1 vs high school is a huge difference in expectations etc.

 

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 01:25:23 PM »
One would think but how do we know that is how CB and TT will view it?

Offline TexDoc

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 02:26:47 PM »
One would think but how do we know that is how CB and TT will view it?

Exactly.  It isn't like basketball where the rules are not barely as complicated.  These two guys cut their teeth on basketball and may not really realize how complex the NCAA football rules really are.

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 02:59:26 PM »
I can see the "panel of inquiry" now....
TT - "So, Mr Football Official, Houston HS threw a 3d down TD pass on the last play of the game to beat Dallas HS for the State Championship.  And one of your crew threw a flag for holding by Houston HS.  So that erased the TD and the game should have been over but yet you let Houston HS have another play and they scored a TD, with no fouls that time.  Is that correct?"

Official - "yes sir, I extended the period and gave Houston HS an untimed down"

TT - "Well I watched the Cowboys play the Redskins the 1st game of the season and I know the game should have ended with that penalty and I am not even a football official!!!  How could you miss that!!!!  It is my way or the highway pal!!!!  No more games for you!"

Offline TxGrayhat

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 10:27:24 PM »
 :bOW wow i wish nfl had our rules. 1 more play pleeeease.
If you don't see the Football Don't Blow the Whistle!!!

GameWillTravel

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 07:49:21 AM »
Does anybody have any Bio on TT Where he came from What sport has he officated and what  chapter ??? ??? ??? ???

504coach

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 08:09:20 AM »
I posted his bio on here about a year ago and the powers that be removed it.  Blackandwhite1 (the original UIL troll) could not realize what his bio had to do with being a good administrator.  I will post it again what the hell.  This is from the SBEC website you can look up any teachers certifications.  He is certified in Drivers Ed and PE.  No he does not have an administrative certification so why does he hold an administrative position inside of education???  This is all public record.  I believe he was a basketball official out of Beaumont???

Texas Educator Certificate 
This certifies that 
Tony Timmons 
has fulfilled requirements of state law and regulations of the
State Board for Educator Certification
and is hereby authorized to perform duties as designated below: 
 
     
   
PROVISIONAL 
Description  Effective Date  Expiration Date  Status 
Secondary Physical Education  12/22/1995  Life  Valid 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
Driver Education  12/22/1995  Life  Valid 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
     
   
NON-RENEWABLE PERMIT 
Description  Effective Date  Expiration Date  Status 
Secondary Physical Education  08/15/1995  08/15/1996  Expired 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
 


Official Record of Certification 
Wednesday, September 15, 2010 
     
 

Offline Arbitrator

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 09:12:50 AM »
I posted his bio on here about a year ago and the powers that be removed it.  Blackandwhite1 (the original UIL troll) could not realize what his bio had to do with being a good administrator.  I will post it again what the hell.  This is from the SBEC website you can look up any teachers certifications.  He is certified in Drivers Ed and PE.  No he does not have an administrative certification so why does he hold an administrative position inside of education???  This is all public record.  I believe he was a basketball official out of Beaumont???

Texas Educator Certificate 
This certifies that 
Tony Timmons 
has fulfilled requirements of state law and regulations of the
State Board for Educator Certification
and is hereby authorized to perform duties as designated below: 
 
     
   
PROVISIONAL 
Description  Effective Date  Expiration Date  Status 
Secondary Physical Education  12/22/1995  Life  Valid 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
Driver Education  12/22/1995  Life  Valid 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
     
   
NON-RENEWABLE PERMIT 
Description  Effective Date  Expiration Date  Status 
Secondary Physical Education  08/15/1995  08/15/1996  Expired 
   Grades (6-12) 
 
 


Official Record of Certification 
Wednesday, September 15, 2010 
     
 


 ^flag

I understand that he does run an inn out in Fort Davis. Story has it that TT really schmoozed up to the  tiphat: Good UIL Dr. after he got named to work a State Basketball Tournament(Dr. B's choice) The friendship really took off and he never looked back. Looks like another  "Beaumont" connection!

Does anyone else remotely remember when Dr. B. supposedly exerted some influence on TASO to name another Beaumont connection as an Assistant TASO ED under Tim Crowley back in 2000/2001? I believe that his name was Eddie King. Like Crowley, King didn't last very long at TASO! Heard through the grapevine at that time that the  tiphat: Good UIL Dr. didn't exactly like TASO fostering Eddie's dismissal, and the relationship between Dr. B and TASO has been going South ever since!  z^

Offline Etref

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 09:15:49 AM »
^flag

I understand that he does run an inn out in Fort Davis. Story has it that TT really schmoozed up to the  tiphat: Good UIL Dr. after he got named to work a State Basketball Tournament(Dr. B's choice) The friendship really took off and he never looked back. Looks like another  "Beaumont" connection!

Does anyone else remotely remember when Dr. B. supposedly exerted some influence on TASO to name another Beaumont connection as an Assistant TASO ED under Tim Crowley back in 2000/2001? I believe that his name was Eddie King. Like Crowley, King didn't last very long at TASO! Heard through the grapevine at that time that the  tiphat: Good UIL Dr. didn't exactly like TASO fostering Eddie's dismissal, and the relationship between Dr. B and TASO has been going South ever since!  z^



 :thumbup
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 09:41:46 AM »
UIL says he has 12 years experience officiating basketball.  I believe some of that has been in some sort of women's leagues (maybe Lone Star Conference?)

He was a coach for a short period of time out in West Texas.

GWK

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 03:43:32 PM »
Accuracy in reporting:

I served in the Beaumont Chapter board of directors back in the early 80's as a Division IV representative and again in 2000 to 2008 as the Chapter Secretary.

Eddie King was a friend of mine.  Eddie, in fact, was the BJ on my crew for several years.

Dr. B, a Buna native, before he was a EdD lived on the street behind me when he coached at Hardin-Jefferson high school (Sour Lake) and also Westbrook high school (Beaumont).   I did not know him or of him at the time.  I officiate football only.

I had never heard of Tony Timmons before this unfortunate take-over episode.  I am quite sure he is NOT a Beaumont boy.

I'm sure Eddie did meet Dr. B through basketball, he was the Beaumont Basketball chapter president for some years.  I don't know a whole lot about their relationship, but sure they were friends.  I was a friend of Dr. B, too, back when I was the football chapter secretary.

Eddie was the Assistant ExecDir for the TASO back in Tim Crowley's day.  In fact, he had applied for the ED job when Jim Blackwood resigned, but the football people wanted a football guy in charge and Tim certainly had higher football credentials that won him the job.  However, most of us who have been around a while know what an unmitigated disaster Tim was for TASO.

Instead of running down Mr. King, I would suggest that he be thanked by the TASO supporters for his mostly unknown and unrewarded service to TASO.  It was Eddie and his wife who packed up the files and furniture and brought the physical remnants and records of TASO to Austin, even though that move was arranged before then by Tim.   I don’t remember exactly what year it was, but it was he who worked to support rules clinics and hold the central office together until the TASO BoD finally hired Bud Alexander to the top job.   For example, Eddie drove the ultra-late-arriving rule books to Columbus to meet Sam Brown and hand them off just a couple of days before Houston’s June rules clinic and save that clinic.  Sam had let them know that without new rules books, he would cancel the clinic.  Again, I don’t remember the year.   Sam personally told me that he was happy to have met Eddie and glad he helped save that clinic.

After a couple of years of service for TASO, Bud decided he didn’t need Eddie’s service and let him go.  I wasn’t there, so I won’t speculate further on what brought that on.  Eddie came back to SE Texas and continued to work football until his knees made that too painful.

To answer a question on a related thread, I have 32 years working football and was already thinking about retiring from the field before this TASO/UIL rift developed.  This could easily help me with that decision.  There was a time, back then, when as secretary and having to deal with Tim’s completely incompetent TASO office, I would have welcomed a UIL takeover.  I know for a fact that we all worked one season without any insurance coverage whatsoever.  We were fortunate that no San Antonio sideline incident occurred that season.  I had made moves to purchase liability and accident insurance for my chapter the next season, but TASO pulled out of their graveyard spiral and I didn’t have to execute that task.

No, I am not for the UIL takeover now.  They handled a matter that required time and surgical gloves with boxing gloves instead.  TASO certainly does serve a very valuable purpose and I can not look forward to the return of the chaos as the UIL goes through that learning curve all over again if they succeed with their not so hidden agenda.  But when discussing history I would like the record to reflect that rather than being part of the problems in the state office that led to this point in time, Mr. King was instead a narrow footbridge over a steep canyon upon which TASO crossed to survive this long.  May it continue to do so.



















Offline blindref757

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2010, 08:09:58 PM »
Thanks for your post GWK.  The relationships we form in this business are what is truly important.  You are a good guy for defending your friend with your version of truth.  I commend you for that.  I was not involved with TASO/SOA during the Crowley days, so I have no axe to grind whatsoever.  But I have had good friends wrongfully accused of crap in a local chapter and I believe strongly in defending their version of the truth.

When we die, there are often 6 other referees who get to carry our casket to the grave.  It won't matter if we were UIL, TASO, good, or horrible at times.  What will matter is what we mean to each other, how we did our jobs as officials and had a blast running up and down Texas' highways doing it. 

secondeagle

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2010, 08:56:06 PM »
Tony graduated from Wellman-Union on the South Plains. He went to Sul Ross to play basketball and met and married a young lady whose family owns a large part of Jeff Davis county. She is a lawyer and spends much of her time in El Paso. Her family owns an inn and a guest ranch in the area. Tony coached at Ft. Davis and short time and according to the people I know from there, he is not any more popular there than he is on this site.

Cooter

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 08:38:09 AM »
Tony graduated from Wellman-Union on the South Plains. He went to Sul Ross to play basketball and met and married a young lady whose family owns a large part of Jeff Davis county. She is a lawyer and spends much of her time in El Paso. Her family owns an inn and a guest ranch in the area. Tony coached at Ft. Davis and short time and according to the people I know from there, he is not any more popular there than he is on this site.
Now we are going to bring spouses and their families into this argument.  Very inappropriate.  Maybe some of you can post photos of his children so we can ridicule them also. 
 ^no

Offline blindref757

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2010, 09:13:41 AM »
Gawd Cooter...you sound like a coach!  You know the type:
Coach yells "That's Holding." 
Ref replies, "Coach, that's not holding."
Coach turns to his players and says "OK guys, we can hold because hey aren't going to call it tonight!"

Nobody said anything derogative about TT's wife.  I agree that it doesn't belong in the thread, but to say that we are somehow demeaning her is nothing more than you picking a fight.

secondeagle

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 09:33:47 AM »
I thought coaches were bad about sitting around and attacking others, but I am beginning to think this board is worse. A person stated that maybe TT had connections from Hardin-Jefferson. I was merely stating what I know about him in Jeff Davis county. Nothing was said about his wife or family, get a grip.

Cooter

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 11:18:26 AM »
I thought coaches were bad about sitting around and attacking others, but I am beginning to think this board is worse. A person stated that maybe TT had connections from Hardin-Jefferson. I was merely stating what I know about him in Jeff Davis county. Nothing was said about his wife or family, get a grip.

Trust me - this board is a lot worse - but getting better about accepting other points of view.  However, I do apologize for my overreaction.  If at all possible, I would hope we can leave family members out - however innocent or for whatever background info we feel led to share. 

There are MANY of us who support UIL that don't want TT in command of officials.  There were many of you who were not supportive of the previous ED - that doesn't mean you didn't support TASO.  Regardless - there are no words that could ever be written to change the minds of most TASO supporters on this site - I accept that.  But, I appreciate the opportunity to dialogue on the subject - something that can't be done in most chapter meetings for fear of retaliation. 

Now - back to TXMike's reason for this thread - I do support crews being suspended for bad calls.  There should probably be some sort of guidelines at the High School level for suspensions since most of us are not professional officials, but this process would greatly improve the quality of HS officiating.  I've seen games where the outcome was determined by a bad call from officials - In my opinion, that crew should be held accountable.  Right now, there are not. 

Again - my apologies to Secondeagle.

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2010, 11:32:10 AM »
  I've seen games where the outcome was determined by a bad call from officials - In my opinion, that crew should be held accountable.  Right now, there are not. 

Well you ain't gonna like this hoss but I call BS on this.  A game's outcome is NEVER "determined" by "A" bad call.  If you believe the outcome can be so determined then there is likely little we can discuss as that is a fundamental mindset issue that we will not be able to get past.  In a game of 75 - 125 plays, there is no way we can say a call on any one of them "determined" the outcome. 

Unfortunately many  (if not most) coaches think the same as you which is why they are so caught up in this "accountability" hysteria. 

ballhog

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 03:16:02 PM »
My thought about accountability is that football (again) is not the issue. Few coaches are ejected from football games and thus earning a trip to account for their actions. In baseball and basketball these are occurrences that happen as a part of the game's culture. This past playoff season a baseball umpire working in a mixed crew from my old chapter MF'd a head coach from a very successful program in the coastal areas. The coach's reaction earned him an ejection. That coach did get to make a trip to Austin and was put on probation for his action. The umpire, a friend of TT, was not called for his unprofessional action. In this case I can certainly understand why coaches desire some accountability.  Of course a coach who frequently drops by my office has the misconception that accountability would standardize things like holding calls. He is a defensive coach so I excuse his ignorance!

Cooter

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2010, 03:26:40 PM »
Well you ain't gonna like this hoss but I call BS on this.  A game's outcome is NEVER "determined" by "A" bad call.  If you believe the outcome can be so determined then there is likely little we can discuss as that is a fundamental mindset issue that we will not be able to get past.  In a game of 75 - 125 plays, there is no way we can say a call on any one of them "determined" the outcome. 

Unfortunately many  (if not most) coaches think the same as you which is why they are so caught up in this "accountability" hysteria. 

I don't mind agreeing to disagree.  We've discussed on this site the game where some feel officials missed two calls at the end of the game where the winning touchdown(s) was denied.  IF the calls were missed, as it appears from replay that they were - the officials caused the outcome.  If a school pays a fee - a large one - to have a tape reviewed by a committee, and the committee feels that particular crew has a history of making bad calls, then I'm all for having that crew sit out a game or two.

Sincerely,   Hoss Cooter   

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2010, 04:00:49 PM »
I don't mind agreeing to disagree.  We've discussed on this site the game where some feel officials missed two calls at the end of the game where the winning touchdown(s) was denied.  IF the calls were missed, as it appears from replay that they were - the officials caused the outcome.  If a school pays a fee - a large one - to have a tape reviewed by a committee, and the committee feels that particular crew has a history of making bad calls, then I'm all for having that crew sit out a game or two.

Sincerely,   Hoss Cooter   

  Cooter

  Here is where I disagree with you.  Unlike the NCAA and the NFL, coaches here have a choice in who works their games.  That is all the accountability that is needed.  If a coach does not like the way a crew, or official, calls a game, a screws up an enforcement, that school is free to never pick that crew or official again.  In the playoffs, after a few rounds, the games are assigned by the chapter.  So, it is the chapter leaderships role to make sure they give games to competent officials, otherwise, the schools will deselect the chapter next year in the playoffs, or maybe forever.

  The UIL (or TASO for that matter) have no business getting involved in evaulating, ranking and disciplining officials for calls or non-calls on the field.  (Different matter if an officials behavior in unprofessional, but that is already covered under the TASO and local chapter ethics rules.

  Remember, at the end of the day, we are nothing more than independent contractors providing a service to the schools (not the UIL).  Like other contractors (the plumber, parking lot restriper, etc.) there should be no discipline for doing a "bad job".  Just simply refuse to use the service provider again.

  Are you in favor of disciplining the band contest judge or one act play judge of they use some criteria other than that written on the sheet to evaluate the school.  It would be applying the rules incorrectly.  The answer is not to provide discipline, but to not use them again.  Why are we being treated differently.

Cooter

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Re: "Accountability"
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2010, 04:25:50 PM »
I absolutely think TASO or UIL should be involved in our evaluations - coaches don't send in eval cards and lower classifications don't have the option to draft crews in my area - so they MAY get some leftovers who shouldn't be on the field.  Even when coaches do send in cards the chapter doesn't do anything with them.  Who then holds the bad crews ACCO*&!table. - the "A" word.  Most chapters don't do it - if yours does, I'm envious.  Yes, playoffs are a little different - in my chapter the Varsity Assigner assigns his crew all playoffs - and we don't have a discipline committee or oversight.  Yes - a chapter problem, but a problem.  A TASO or UIL evaluation system would be a welcomed change.  
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 05:31:39 PM by Cooter »