Author Topic: TASO/UIL Proposal  (Read 33330 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

El Macman

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 08:27:20 PM »
Wow, I thought TASO folks knew the system, but apparently some don't. OK, the UIL's policy is really simple - the opposing participants must agree on the officials. Without getting into specific words, that's about it. There is no actual requirement for UIL participants to use TASO, or any trained or qualified official(s). If I heard it once from Bailey Marshall, Bill Farney, and, yes, Charles Breithaupt, I heard it a dozen times: coaches can use their grandmothers, if they both agree. During the Marshall-Farney years, though, they made sure that schools used TASO officials, or had a darned good reason to use someone else (which, because of their support for TASO, was very, very rare, if it ever happened).

In theory, this mutual agreement concept would assure impartiality. In theory.

How does it work in practice? Assignment practices vary widely across the state. In some areas, the vast majority of assignments are made by the chapter assignor, based upon scratch and/or preferred lists from the soliciting participant. In many cases, the visiting team may not have been consulted, because it knows they have the same ability - they'll get the officials from their home (or preferred) chapter. This is the informal, "you use your officials - I'll use mine," principle. But any visiting team can certainly insist on giving their approval. Some (many?) of those same chapters may also have to accept assignments made directly by coaches. They coach(es) will either contact the officials directly, request specific officials from the chapter, or go through some sort of 'draft' process. This more direct system is what some chapters have to use for the vast majority of their assignments. If there is a chapter anywhere in Texas that has the ability to make all of its assignments without any form of influence from the participants, I'm not aware of it, and it would certainly be an aberration. Even then, any time one of the participants decided to exercise its UIL-given right to 'agree' to the officials, the chapter would have to accommodate. There are probably a bunch of other permutations, but the bottom line is that the participants have the right to select (hand-pick, in many cases) the officials that work their games.
So, how do officials react when they know a coach has the ability to pick him/her, or not pick him/her? In the perfect world, they don't react. They work with absolute impartiality, regardless of the circumstances, or possible repercussions.

But this world isn't perfect.

There have been, and, undoubtedly, still are, individuals that would at least make sure they didn't upset certain coaches (by, at a minimum, not enforcing sideline decorum, uniform/equipment rules, etc.), if not downright made sure those participants were successful.

Officials are the entire justice system for sporting events. They are the police, the prosecutors, the judges, the juries, and the penal officers, all wrapped up in one package. Give me an example of any other justice system in civilized, democratic societies that allows its citizenry to choose, by any method, the police officers that will be on duty at a given time; or allows defendants to choose their prosecutor, judge, or jury; or allows inmates to choose their warden. The conflict of interest is staggering.   

The only time participants don't have the official ability to select their officials is when they can't mutually agree. Then the two participants turn to the UIL to secure an assignment. In those cases, the UIL will contact some other chapter, and will ask that chapter for a crew, usually with some form of qualification (i.e., only Division 1, or a certain racial mix, etc.).

Solution: By whatever process (courts, Legislature, or simple capitulation by the UIL), the participants must be removed from the assignment process. Any participant that needs officials may contact any chapter of its choice, and request a crew for a specified assignment, and the chapter will provide a crew (based upon the TASO-wide assignment policy previously mentioned). Note: the "assignment policy" could allow for a certain amount of pre-season 'scratches;' say, a number not to exceed 5% (negotiable) of a chapter. But no specific requests, no 'preferred' list, and no in-season (including post-season) scratches without the participant going through some sort of formal grievance process.

As far as I know, the UIL system is the only one that allows this. The NCAA, the NFL, MLB, the NBA, the NHL - none of them let participants select their officials. It is time to put a stop to it in Texas.

Offline slo8140

  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 08:20:59 AM »
Great post. I have worked in a chapter with and without crews. With a pick system and with a secretary/board assignment system. All have their pluses and minuses, but I think the most important thing is to get the coaches out of the process.

Still not sure how it would work, but we really need a system of evaluation that is implemented TASO wide so that officials can be evaluated and told what they need to do to get better. We also need to limit the amount of experience on a crew. I understand that it is great to work with a crew full of Div 1 guys, but think about how much better our younger officials would become if they were allowed to be on a crew with more experienced guys. It would strengthen crews overall and provide for an easier transition process when the older Div. 1 guys hang it up.

Offline Coby

  • *
  • Posts: 283
  • FAN REACTION: +24/-72
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 09:50:05 AM »
Great post. I have worked in a chapter with and without crews. With a pick system and with a secretary/board assignment system. All have their pluses and minuses, but I think the most important thing is to get the coaches out of the process.

Still not sure how it would work, but we really need a system of evaluation that is implemented TASO wide so that officials can be evaluated and told what they need to do to get better. We also need to limit the amount of experience on a crew. I understand that it is great to work with a crew full of Div 1 guys, but think about how much better our younger officials would become if they were allowed to be on a crew with more experienced guys. It would strengthen crews overall and provide for an easier transition process when the older Div. 1 guys hang it up.

I do not want to be on a crew of old officials.  I get more out of the fellowship from officials my age on my crew then I would if I had to spend my Friday nights with older more experienced football officials.  Dont underestimate this intrinsic value.  They dont have the same life problems and officiating problems that I have.  I am sure they would object from a youngen coming in and interupting their way of doing things that have worked for them for so long.

I would be in favor of a week 2 or 3 crew switch where you switch U or HL from one crew to another crew to see what best practices they can provide the new crew and what best practices they can take from the crew they worked with back to their home crew.  An exchange program for lack of a better term would help get the same type of benefits I believe you are looking for.  Hmmmmm I like this idea I may put it out at a meeting eventually.

Offline DallasLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 553
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-15
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 11:23:06 AM »
I do not want to be on a crew of old officials.  I get more out of the fellowship from officials my age on my crew then I would if I had to spend my Friday nights with older more experienced football officials.  Dont underestimate this intrinsic value.  They dont have the same life problems and officiating problems that I have.  I am sure they would object from a youngen coming in and interupting their way of doing things that have worked for them for so long.

I would be in favor of a week 2 or 3 crew switch where you switch U or HL from one crew to another crew to see what best practices they can provide the new crew and what best practices they can take from the crew they worked with back to their home crew.  An exchange program for lack of a better term would help get the same type of benefits I believe you are looking for.  Hmmmmm I like this idea I may put it out at a meeting eventually.

  Sounds like our system in Dallas.  Crews must be reformed every two years and have a strict count they must adhere to that does not allow all Divisions 1's, or all Division 3's.  What you end up with a lot of time is "senior" crews of 4 very experienced D1's with a Div 3 or 4 on the crew for a few years.  By forcing the crews to reform every year with the numbering restriction, you force crews to bring in young officials for training and development.

Offline Coby

  • *
  • Posts: 283
  • FAN REACTION: +24/-72
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2011, 12:16:03 PM »
  Sounds like our system in Dallas.  Crews must be reformed every two years and have a strict count they must adhere to that does not allow all Divisions 1's, or all Division 3's.  What you end up with a lot of time is "senior" crews of 4 very experienced D1's with a Div 3 or 4 on the crew for a few years.  By forcing the crews to reform every year with the numbering restriction, you force crews to bring in young officials for training and development.

What I did not like about that system was that there was a back in requirement of adding up to no more then 12.  I am a 2 and everyone else on my crew is a 3.  Where do you think the big crews would go to get their new members?  That would have left me with all of the dreads of Div 1's to choose from and I would rather get a 5 or a 4 then some of them.  I tried to meet them half way with a friendly ammendment that no one could loose more then 1 person from their crew in any year but the people who were pushing the rule did not go for it. 

Does it bring in young officials or new officials?  There is a big disconnect between young officials and new officials in chapter vernacular.  There are few quality young officials (I define that as under the age of 40 and a division 3 or better and on a crew).  New officials are anyone that has been officiating for less then 5 years IMO.  So the question to you is are the young officials that are coming in under the age of 40 or are they another guy in their 60's that got started officiating later in life.  I would be interested to hear more about that dynamic.

Offline DallasLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 553
  • FAN REACTION: +16/-15
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 05:13:27 PM »
What I did not like about that system was that there was a back in requirement of adding up to no more then 12.  I am a 2 and everyone else on my crew is a 3.  Where do you think the big crews would go to get their new members?  That would have left me with all of the dreads of Div 1's to choose from and I would rather get a 5 or a 4 then some of them.  I tried to meet them half way with a friendly ammendment that no one could loose more then 1 person from their crew in any year but the people who were pushing the rule did not go for it. 

Does it bring in young officials or new officials?  There is a big disconnect between young officials and new officials in chapter vernacular.  There are few quality young officials (I define that as under the age of 40 and a division 3 or better and on a crew).  New officials are anyone that has been officiating for less then 5 years IMO.  So the question to you is are the young officials that are coming in under the age of 40 or are they another guy in their 60's that got started officiating later in life.  I would be interested to hear more about that dynamic.

 I have been in Dallas for 20+ years and was here for the implementation of the crew system, so I also have seen both coaches drafts and Board assignments.  Lots of guys in the late 20's and early 30's on crews.  Generally, anybody that starts after the age of 50 is going to have a hard time moving very far up.

Offline TxGrayhat

  • *
  • Posts: 323
  • FAN REACTION: +15/-4
  • T.A.S.O
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2011, 08:39:39 PM »
Every Chapter having 1 vote is supremely unfair to those Chapters with several hundred members compared to those with less than a hundred.  As I understand it, the Districts were roughly configured such that tehre was close to the same number of officials represented in each District.  
I understand numbers have power however Its like being a Republican in San Fransico . A member of a small Chapter has no voice. Other than for the principle of it Why would a small chapter even take part in the process. Just call Houston and find out how its gonna be. (no disrespect houston your just the biggest chapter I know of )
If you don't see the Football Don't Blow the Whistle!!!

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2011, 08:44:09 PM »
The small chapters DO have a voice.  They are banded together with a few other small ones and exercise their voice through that District. There are no small Chapters in Houston's district.  So you do not compete with them.

Offline rsquare

  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2011, 08:53:16 PM »
I started up a new crew this year. In essence I am a 2 just shy of 1. The rest of my crew are 3's and 1 - 4. Though short on paper experience I would put these guys up mechanically and professionally against many of the "seasoned vets". Nonetheless, I can almost guarantee that the picks for our intial years will be very slim if any to say the least. It is the committment and dedication for the long haul that I selected these "quality" individuals. I have been on crews with coaches' picks and seen the politics associated with board assigns. I too have noticed chapters require a revamping of a crew makeup after a period of time. I applaud this as an opportunity for lower division memebers. I thought perhaps the 5A/4A games could be coaches picks and the remainder on a lottery crew basis with a coach pick for a particular crew count as that selection for that particular round in those divisions and TAPPS. But what do I know??    ^no

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 06:50:08 AM »
The small chapters DO have a voice.  They are banded together with a few other small ones and exercise their voice through that District. There are no small Chapters in Houston's district.  So you do not compete with them.

Come on Mikey.  If memory serves me correct, the “Big 5” were invited to the September 2010 meeting with the UIL.  I don’t remember the district reps being there to represent the smaller chapters.  Yeah I know, 4 days wasn’t enough notice for all to get there.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 07:36:22 AM »
There were no decisions to be made at that meeting or votes to be taken.  There was no need for every Chapter to be individually represented.  The organization as a whole was represented and there would have had to have been formal votes by District Reps before anything could be done.  Just like the "agreements" you posted a few days ago.  Do you want to say the "agreement" was flawed because it was worked out by only one person from a small chapter?  I don't say that.  What I say is that when the "agreement" was taken for an official approval, all Chapters were represented and had a voice in the proceedings. 

TASO FB has several committees which can make recommendations for changes. Those committees do not automatically include reps from all chapters or all size chapters.  But whatever the committee comes up with has to be agreed on by the organization as a whole through our elected reps. 

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 07:51:02 AM »
No, I’m not saying the agreement was flawed at all.  Other than a few word changes I thought it was excellent and showed lots of time and hard work went into its preparation.  It appeared to be win-win deal for us.  I think that adding #20 was the killer.  Without #20, I think we would have had a deal. IMO

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 07:58:36 AM »
Under Dr Farney, the original proposal might have been acceptable.  Unfortunately that was before some UIL folks said and did some things that caused us to no longer be able to just accept "they would do the right thing".  The agreement left some things open that, if we trusted the UIL, would be no problem.  But without that basic trust, things had to be spelled out.

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 10:04:34 AM »
Yes there is a trust issue with the UIL.  If you keep messing with the snake he’ll bite you.  But we (TASO) haven’t exactly upheld our end of the bargain in the past.  My thoughts are that football has but other sports haven’t.  Maybe it’s time for football to make a jump and form our own organization separate from the others?  Just thinking out loud!

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2011, 10:04:36 AM »
As much as I don’t trust the UIL, I really don’t trust Fitch either.  I think his concerns are naturally for his pay check and not in the official’s best interest.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 10:06:48 AM »
It was NOT Fitch who asked for the changes to the "agreement". In fact, he played a minor role during the TASO FB board's review of the document.

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2011, 10:17:57 AM »
I never said he had anything to do with the agreement.  I’ve known Mike for years and with him it’s always been about Mike.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2011, 10:22:13 AM »
You started this thread (for whatever reason) on the proposal.  When you were told the reason for some of the changes were due to current lack of trust in UIL you came back slamming MF.  If you just want to slam him then why not bring it up on its own instead of trying to tie him to the proposal.

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2011, 10:43:27 AM »
Glad you cleared that up.  Now we know he DID have a role in the agreement, regardless of how small.  And what was your role in composing or editing of the agreements?

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2011, 10:44:29 AM »
Zippo

Online ETXZebra

  • *
  • Posts: 415
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-7
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2011, 11:06:39 AM »
At this time it doesn't matter who had a role. But I would still like to know why the phrase "The UIL agrees to accept all currently recognized TASO-Football chapters" is crossed out?

Offline backjudge85

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • FAN REACTION: +9/-3
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2011, 03:35:09 PM »
TEXNEWREF, were you at the FebruaryTASO FB board meeting?  If you were then you know exactly how the proposal was changed.  It was brought to the board and the BOARD as a whole made the changes, not one individual and certainly not Mike Fitch....If you werent at the board meeting, I was and I can tell you for a FACT that is how it was done.  The agreement was presented and the board heard a few things in it that it couldnt in good faith agree too.   I have known Mike Fitch for 20 years and I can tell you that in that time, it HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT MIKE FITCH.....never has been and never will be.....get your facts straight before you start making accusations on here.....

El Macman

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2011, 04:43:43 PM »
TEXNEWREF, were you at the FebruaryTASO FB board meeting?  If you were then you know exactly how the proposal was changed.  It was brought to the board and the BOARD as a whole made the changes, not one individual and certainly not Mike Fitch....If you werent at the board meeting, I was and I can tell you for a FACT that is how it was done.  The agreement was presented and the board heard a few things in it that it couldnt in good faith agree too.   I have known Mike Fitch for 20 years and I can tell you that in that time, it HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT MIKE FITCH.....never has been and never will be.....get your facts straight before you start making accusations on here.....

Known him since intramural ball in college (more than 20 years, but I ain't sayin' how much) - NEVER, EVER been about him. He's the right man for the job.

texnewref

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Proposal
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2011, 06:46:49 PM »
OK you guys have known Mike longer than I have.  I’ve only known him about 15 years.  I’m not sure what accusations or slam I made about him, other than saying I don’t trust him.  I never said he was good or bad in the agreement debate.  Over the years you formed your opinion of him and I, as others formed mine.   I believe I have the right to my opinion, whether you agree or not.

Cooter

  • Guest
Re: TASO/UIL Prposal
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2011, 09:46:29 AM »
There were no decisions to be made at that meeting or votes to be taken.  There was no need for every Chapter to be individually represented.  The organization as a whole was represented ...

This post speaks volumes as to the "Big 5's" attitude about the smaller chapters - No need for every chapter to be represented since we "Big 5" were there - The organization as a whole was represented since we "Big 5" were there.  I've said many times before that a large part of the fight against the UIL has to do with the "Big 5's" fear of losing the strangle hold they have on the rest of the state.  It's a shame some from smaller chapters are buying into the propaganda - rest assured small chapters - this fight is not about you - its about the largest chapters maintaining their monopoly.