Author Topic: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......  (Read 16128 times)

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Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #175 on: March 14, 2023, 04:36:30 PM »
I nominated pushing the pile/helping the runner in hopes that it would help to reduce this act from our game at a high school level.

I'll wait for the official statements/wording, but is the implication that 'pushing the pile' is 'helping the runner' and should be penalized as such?

Because... I don't think you're going to get much buy in for that. I understand how that can be a dangerous play, but that'll be a tough sell to a coach if you flag it.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #176 on: March 14, 2023, 04:45:59 PM »
I'll wait for the official statements/wording, but is the implication that 'pushing the pile' is 'helping the runner' and should be penalized as such?

Because... I don't think you're going to get much buy in for that. I understand how that can be a dangerous play, but that'll be a tough sell to a coach if you flag it.

Last season we announced to the coaches that pushing the pile would be inturped as the runner's forward progress had stopped and blow the play dead. They understood and agreed as they,too, agreed that it didn't blong in HS football. I gave the NFHS a prototype that could be used for a POE. I hope they use it.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #177 on: March 14, 2023, 05:43:55 PM »
Last season we announced to the coaches that pushing the pile would be inturped as the runner's forward progress had stopped and blow the play dead. They understood and agreed as they,too, agreed that it didn't blong in HS football. I gave the NFHS a prototype that could be used for a POE. I hope they use it.

Can't understand why you were questioned, current NFHS Rules state;  NFHS 4-2-2 : Clearly states, "The ball becomes DEAD. and the down is ended (a) "When a runner...:.is held so his forward progress is stopped...", which is a judgment determined (exclusively) by the covering official.

NFHS:2-15-1 just as clearly states, " Forward Progress is the end of advancement of the ball, towards the opponents goal, in a runner's possession...."

NFHS 2-32-13: "A runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball..."

It will be interesting to see what the language added by the 2023 "Points of Emphases"  to clarify those determinations.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2023, 05:48:04 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #178 on: March 14, 2023, 05:54:29 PM »
Thanks Al. I think we all know what forward progress is.  There is no need to go MSU.

I too will wait for the POE language and our state interpreter's guidance.  Given what I saw late in the NFL season, it probably does need to be addressed from the start. 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #179 on: March 15, 2023, 07:12:07 AM »
In February 2022, I Emailed a proposal for a POE and/or a state interp to the NFHS and MPA. It can be read/retrived from our forum : NFHS, page 7,'pushing the pile', reply #34 - if anyone has the know-how to paste it to this topic. The NFHS had already chosen their POEs, but the MPA (Maine Principals' Association) voted to support my interp. At our coaches clinic, a high majority agreed that pushing the pile shouldn't  be allowed in our high school game, and would abide. They did, as none of our officials reported the need to enforce.

I'm unsure if any of my proposal will be used in this year's POE. I'll find out when my rule book arrives.  :)

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #180 on: March 15, 2023, 08:12:15 AM »
We take a straw poll as to what needs to be addressed as POE's. Those are pared with the length of time since last published. I nominated pushing the pile/helping the runner in hopes that it would help to reduce this act from our game at a high school level. Last time POE was 2010.

Communication Between Coaches and Officials was last published as Sideline Management and Control in 2017.

Game Management deals with the active presence of AD or Site Director to control and provide for protection for all. Last published in 2015.

An added "ounce of prevention" calling attention, and focus, to a useless practice that is unnecessarily dangerous is never a wasted effort, especially one that seems to be gaining popularity, and frequency, at "higher" levels.  "Pushing the pile" is a, long eliminated hereditary concept, dating back to roots from Rugby.   Some behaviors require /benefit from periodic reminders.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #181 on: March 17, 2023, 12:17:35 PM »
In February 2022, I Emailed a proposal for a POE and/or a state interp to the NFHS and MPA. It can be read/retrived from our forum : NFHS, page 7,'pushing the pile', reply #34 - if anyone has the know-how to paste it to this topic. The NFHS had already chosen their POEs, but the MPA (Maine Principals' Association) voted to support my interp. At our coaches clinic, a high majority agreed that pushing the pile shouldn't  be allowed in our high school game, and would abide. They did, as none of our officials reported the need to enforce.

I'm unsure if any of my proposal will be used in this year's POE. I'll find out when my rule book arrives.  :)

Reading that post, if the intent is "If the runner is not moving under his own power, forward progress has stopped and the ball is dead", then I'll support that and have no issues there. Turning the scrum into a foul for assisting the runner is going to be received poorly, but it doesn't have to be a foul to get the safety point across.

The interpretation issue where there will be inconsistency is where is the runner moving the pile vs the pile moving the runner? When in doubt, blow it dead? Again, not a problem with that, but there will likely be a few screaming coaches the first few weeks of the season... although, in other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #182 on: March 17, 2023, 12:41:30 PM »
Reading that post, if the intent is "If the runner is not moving under his own power, forward progress has stopped and the ball is dead", then I'll support that and have no issues there. Turning the scrum into a foul for assisting the runner is going to be received poorly, but it doesn't have to be a foul to get the safety point across.

The interpretation issue where there will be inconsistency is where is the runner moving the pile vs the pile moving the runner? When in doubt, blow it dead? Again, not a problem with that, but there will likely be a few screaming coaches the first few weeks of the season... although, in other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.
I've told our officials to only flag helping the runner if a teammate grabs ,pulls or picks up a runner. Pushing the pile only stops forward progress. Last year, at our coaches clinic, the coaches were agreeable to this. After the season ,at our state officials meeting, none had reported needing to apply it. Last week , at this years coaches clinic, the coaches were asked if any had seen pushing the pile allowed or called. None claimed that they had.

At a Super Bowl party, as the game neared ending, with the KC runner downing the ball at the one...WHAT IF...a defender grabbed the runner before he could take a knee and dragged him into the end zone  ???....Something to think about  :sTiR:.  When asked, I wouldn't see a foul but I would see a very smart defensive play. What say you  ???

   :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 01:00:43 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #183 on: March 18, 2023, 06:46:35 AM »
The whole concept of one team purposefully allowing the opponent to score, and the opponent refusing to score sickens me to no end.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #184 on: March 18, 2023, 08:20:27 AM »
The whole concept of one team purposefully allowing the opponent to score, and the opponent refusing to score sickens me to no end.
Recalling a Super Bowl that the Ravens won, where late in the game the Ravens were all -except the guy with the ball -holding their opponents in the end zone while the clock ran. The intentional safety by that method was quickly outlawed by the NFL shortly thereafter.

                                                                                                  :puke:

Offline Bugolathe

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2023, 10:10:16 AM »
PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND THE CHANGE TO 2-29-1.  I think I've reread the rule about 10 times and still really don't understand the change.  Anybody have a play scenario on how the rule was enforced last year and what we will be doing this year?  Thanks in advance.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #186 on: March 19, 2023, 12:46:55 PM »
Clarified When A Player Is Inbounds After Being Out of Bounds [2-29-1]: This change clarifies when a player is inbounds after being out of bounds. There is no change to any foul or subsequent penalty provisions, or any rules related to illegal participation or the provisions regarding eligibility to catch a pass.

There has been no NFHS definition of inbounds thus no re-establish rule as in college.   Hopefully this cleans up the apparent netherworld of a player who has gone out of bounds but has not yet returned to the field of play.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #187 on: March 20, 2023, 06:12:44 AM »
Clarified When A Player Is Inbounds After Being Out of Bounds [2-29-1]: This change clarifies when a player is inbounds after being out of bounds. There is no change to any foul or subsequent penalty provisions, or any rules related to illegal participation or the provisions regarding eligibility to catch a pass.

There has been no NFHS definition of inbounds thus no re-establish rule as in college.   Hopefully this cleans up the apparent netherworld of a player who has gone out of bounds but has not yet returned to the field of play.

At our coaches clinic, a veteran coach asked : "You say it's where you came from ,not where you land on an OOB player catching a pass while airborne and landing inbounds is incomplete; than why isn't an inbounds player who goes airborne while catching a pass and landing OOB considered a complete pass ?"

HOW WOULD YOU GUYS HAVE ANSWERED ??

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: (5-MAN CREW)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #188 on: March 21, 2023, 08:36:04 AM »
The pass is not considered complete until the receiver has returned to the ground in the field of play.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline VALJ

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #189 on: March 21, 2023, 08:39:15 AM »
“Out of bounds” overrides in bounds.  If a player is in the air who either starts or ends out of bounds, the play is out of bounds.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #190 on: March 21, 2023, 10:35:22 AM »
Thanks, VALJ & NVFOA Ump, both of your reesponses were better than mine. Caught off-guard with the question, I sorta' stammered :

"ERR...WELL, BOTH WOULD BE ..INCOMPLETE...ERR, NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT LIGHTING UP THE RECIEVER  :-\ "

Wanted to share this with you guys so you would be ready if that question occurred. An analogy of 'it's where you came from, not where you landed that counts' is what got me into trouble and I'll refrain from using it  in the future.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #191 on: March 21, 2023, 02:19:26 PM »
Thanks, VALJ & NVFOA Ump, both of your reesponses were better than mine. Caught off-guard with the question, I sorta' stammered :

"ERR...WELL, BOTH WOULD BE ..INCOMPLETE...ERR, NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT LIGHTING UP THE RECIEVER  :-\ "

Wanted to share this with you guys so you would be ready if that question occurred. An analogy of 'it's where you came from, not where you landed that counts' is what got me into trouble and I'll refrain from using it  in the future.


Shakespeare was right, "A rose by any name would smell as sweet".  "Cheap Shot" includes/covers a whole variety of Rule specific designations.

Offline refjeff

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #192 on: April 01, 2023, 07:53:52 PM »
An added "ounce of prevention" calling attention, and focus, to a useless practice that is unnecessarily dangerous is never a wasted effort, especially one that seems to be gaining popularity, and frequency, at "higher" levels.  "Pushing the pile" is a, long eliminated hereditary concept, dating back to roots from Rugby.   Some behaviors require /benefit from periodic reminders.
In Ohio pushing the pile is not assisting the runner by interpretation.  I've seen it many times and never saw anyone get hurt.

As you said, if forward progress has not stopped the play has not ended. 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #193 on: April 02, 2023, 06:22:56 AM »
In Ohio pushing the pile is not assisting the runner by interpretation.  I've seen it many times and never saw anyone get hurt.

As you said, if forward progress has not stopped the play has not ended.
We don't flag pushing the pile, only rule forward progress by the runner has stopped. Like the officials, most coaches agreed that it didn't belong in football and stopped teaching it. They seem to have kept their word, as no situations were reported by either officials or coaches. We reserve helping the runner calls for acts such as a teammate grabbing, pulling or carrying the runner. A POE this year is 'helping the runner' , I'm of interest to read the NFHS approach on this.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #194 on: April 02, 2023, 07:05:33 AM »
We don't flag pushing the pile, only rule forward progress by the runner has stopped. Like the officials, most coaches agreed that it didn't belong in football and stopped teaching it. They seem to have kept their word, as no situations were reported by either officials or coaches. We reserve helping the runner calls for acts such as a teammate grabbing, pulling or carrying the runner. A POE this year is 'helping the runner' , I'm of interest to read the NFHS approach on this.

Agree, but suggest that the RUNNER's Forward Progress stops, when the "pushing" begins, which is where the play actually ends, as determined by the covering official.  Hopefully the POE language will confirm.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #195 on: April 05, 2023, 01:47:25 PM »
With the attempt to run an experimental rule of starting the clock on ready for play on OOB plays (excepting last 2 mins. of each half) our coaches nixed it 6-44. I had promised the subcommittee that needed data in order for them to consider bringing it to the floor. IMHO, two components are needed to supply the data requested:

(1) The number of times during a game that a clock is stopped by either the ball or the runner goes OOB.

(2) The number of seconds between the ball marked RFP to the time the ball is snapped.

I plan to compile the average number of OOB plays times the second of dead time between RFP and snap. This would provide the aprox. time a game might be shortened. Examples :

OOB plays  10 times 15 seconds down time = 2 minutes, 30 seconds shorter game. We have asked the LJ to record the number of OOB plays and clock operators or retired officials to record the dead time in some games. More recorded games provides better accuracy for compiled data, and I welcome any of you guys to supply any trackings you were able to obtain.

ANY TAKERS ???
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 01:38:15 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #196 on: April 05, 2023, 09:54:20 PM »
Ralph, you can probably glean some data from games that were broadcast on NFHS Network or YouTube as they are usually run straight through from start to finish.  Hudl wouldn't work as they are usually cut from play to play.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #197 on: April 06, 2023, 05:27:42 AM »
Ralph, you can probably glean some data from games that were broadcast on NFHS Network or YouTube as they are usually run straight through from start to finish.  Hudl wouldn't work as they are usually cut from play to play.
Thanks, HLinNC, that's a great idea  yEs: ! I still would welcome any of you that might want to track a game or two to supply their data to me and I'll add it to my compiled data. i wasn't surprised with the coaches votes as yhe questiooniare that many  of us completed   had the following results to starting the clock on RFP after OOB :

                                                       OFFICIALS               75%  YES                           25%  NO
                                                       COACHES                 25%  YES                           75% NO

I don't have a problem with the coaches voiced opinion, as it is their game, too.       
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 01:39:02 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #198 on: April 06, 2023, 07:14:09 AM »
In my experience, HS coaches want to run as many plays as possible during a game.  Game length is of little concern.

Offline ted skoundrianos

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Re: hEAR YE, HERE YE..IT'S GROUNDHOG DAY, HERE THEY ARE......
« Reply #199 on: April 09, 2023, 04:23:08 PM »
If you want to speed up the game. Why not go to new college rule for next year. Only stopping the clock on 1st downs the last 2 minutes of each half.