Author Topic: Silly question of the day  (Read 1971 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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Silly question of the day
« on: February 26, 2023, 03:06:27 PM »
Not that hard, but interesting.

Try, B-3. B99 blocks the field goal attempt, and the ball falls to the ground at the B-5, where B88 recovers the ball and advances to the A-5, where A33 catches up to B88 and pulls the ball out of B88’s arms. The ball bounds into the Team A end zone, where A33 is able to recover the ball, and attempts to advance the ball out of the end zone. However, B88 is able to tackle and pull A33 to the ground in the end zone, and the ball becomes dead in A33’s possession, in the end zone.

Ruling:

Offline Kalle

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2023, 06:17:58 AM »
My gut answer is that this is a touchback as the ball became dead in team A's EZ and team B is responsible for it being there (fumble by B88). After checking rule 8 I'm pretty sure that I'm right :) Interesting play, though, it does touch quite a few atypical rules.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2023, 06:40:21 AM »
My gut answer is that this is a touchback as the ball became dead in team A's EZ and team B is responsible for it being there (fumble by B88). After checking rule 8 I'm pretty sure that I'm right :) Interesting play, though, it does touch quite a few atypical rules.

Effectively, correct. Technically, this isn’t a touchback, since the ball won’t be next put in play by a snap. But, the Try is simply over, with no score (for either team). This is NOT a safety, since Team B’s fumble is the impetus that put the ball into A’s end zone, where it then becomes dead in A’s possession.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2023, 07:06:23 AM »
Effectively, correct. Technically, this isn’t a touchback, since the ball won’t be next put in play by a snap.

Good clarification, I used "touchback" as a shorthand for "not a safety" :)

Offline Etref

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2023, 07:19:28 AM »
And a long run for the Referee!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2023, 07:26:11 AM »
I’m going to disagree. This technically IS a touchback, there is just a gap in the rules language about the next down in the case of a touchback on a try. 8-6-1 simply states “It is a touchback when…the ball… becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind their own goal line and the attacking team is responsible for the ball being there.” The rule says nothing about not applying on a try. And what happens next does not affect what already happened. By definition this is a touchback.

The problem is we then have two conflicting rules with what to do next. 8-6-2 says the defending team will snap the ball at their own 20, unless the touchback is a result of a free kick in which case the 25. But 8-3-6 says that a kickoff follows a try with the team scoring the 6 point touchdown putting the ball in play. So we really just need an editorial change to 8-6-2 that simply says “Exception: Rule 8-3-6”.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2023, 07:49:33 AM »
Here's a thought to muck things up a bit -- Same play, except B88 tackles A33 by his facemask.

From my Fed background, once B got possession of the ball on the try, the play is dead and the rest of this is irrelevant (actually, as soon as it was obvious the kick would not be successful...). However, this isn't Fed, so I'm probably a bit rusty here.

What are A's options w.r.t. penalty enforcement? Can they replay the try or did the try fail once B got possession?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2023, 08:03:12 AM »
Fouls after a change of possession on a try are declined by rule unless they are flagrant, unsportsmanlike, or live ball enforced as dead ball fouls. So the FMM would be declined by rule and we would get the same result.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2023, 10:57:51 AM »
The problem is we then have two conflicting rules with what to do next. 8-6-2 says the defending team will snap the ball at their own 20, unless the touchback is a result of a free kick in which case the 25. But 8-3-6 says that a kickoff follows a try with the team scoring the 6 point touchdown putting the ball in play. So we really just need an editorial change to 8-6-2 that simply says “Exception: Rule 8-3-6”.

And that is my point is saying that this isn’t touchback, any more than a catch by B of a free kick inside the B-20 following a signal is a touchback. B will next put the ball in play by snap at the B-25, but it isn’t a touchback.
If, however, they were to edit 8-6-2 to offer the exception you suggest, then there would be no reason not to call it a touchback. That would be a good editorial change. Are you listening, Steve?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2023, 11:01:31 AM »
8-6-1 is how a touchback is scored. What part 8-6-1 does this play not fit? By definition this is a touchback. The disconnect is not in the result of the down. The disconnect is what to do *after* the down.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2023, 02:49:19 PM »
8-6-1 is how a touchback is scored. What part 8-6-1 does this play not fit? By definition this is a touchback. The disconnect is not in the result of the down. The disconnect is what to do *after* the down.

8-6-2 says, "After a touchback is declared (not "...scored."), the ball belongs to the defending team at its own 20-yard line, unless...yada yada yada." A scrimmage snap at the 20 or 25 is required for the next down following a touchback. If the ball is not next put in play by a snap, then either we are misapplying the rule, or we can't truly call the given scenario a touchback.

8-3-6: "Following a try, the ball shall be put in play by a kickoff, or at the succeeding spot in extra periods." All we have is an unsuccessful try. We wouldn't - and shouldn't - signal touchback, under the circumstances presented in this scenario.  We would simply signal "Unsuccessful Try" (S10), and move to the kickoff.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2023, 05:44:28 PM »
It's almost like you're intentionally not answering my question.

If a team advances the ball into their opponent's end zone on a try it is a touchdown.
If a team place kicks the ball through their opponent's goal on a try it is a field goal.
If a team is responsible for the ball being behind their own goal line when it becomes dead on a try, it is a safety.
If a team is responsible for the ball being behind their own opponent's goal line when it becomes dead it is... what?

The fact that it occurs on a try does not change the definition of those things. It only changes the point values for the first 3.

I'll give you an analogous down. On a try from the B-3, Team A's place kick is wide left. Is this an unsuccessful field goal attempt by rule?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 09:14:55 AM »
I'll give you an analogous down. On a try from the B-3, Team A's place kick is wide left. Is this an unsuccessful field goal attempt by rule?

Yes. And we dutifully signal unsuccessful try (S10), just as we would if the ball is declared dead between the goal lines, or in Team A's possession in their own end zone, and the impetus is by Team B. Using S10, the officials tell everyone that there is no score by either team, and the next down will be a kickoff. We would NOT give Team A the ball at their 20-yard line for a scrimmage down/series.

The touchback was created to allow for the next down in these circumstances, during regular play - not a try. Without it, during regular play, when the ball becomes dead behind the defending team's goal line, and impetus is by the attacking team, everyone would be standing around, looking at each other, wondering, "What do we do now?" The touchback, indicated by officials with S7, tells everyone 1) no score by either team, and 2) what happens next, which will be a snap (for a new scrimmage series) by the defending team, from the defending team's 20-yard line (or 25, if the impetus is from A's legal free kick). Ya ain't gonna do that following a try. So, it ain't a touchback.

So, go ahead. Should this ever happen to you, feel free to look silly - and incorrect - and use S7. Thankfully, I'll win the lottery before anyone ever has to experience this silly down.

I'll throw out a new silly down soon, for us to wrestle over. They DO get us thinking, don't they...

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 09:52:16 AM »
By your logic earlier in the thread, how can you say that it’s an unsuccessful field goal if you’re not going to give Team B the ball at the B-20 since that’s what 8-4-2 says to do after an unsuccessful field goal attempt.

But obviously it’s an unsuccessful field goal by rule and what you do next has no bearing on what the result of the previous down was. Another example: 1/10 B-15, A11 runs for a gain of 13, fumbles the ball, and the ball goes out the back of the end zone. Time expires in the half. The next down would be the kickoff to start the second half. The fact that we go to a kickoff doesn’t change the fact that it was a touchback by rule.

And if the mechanics manual says to give a dead ball signal prior to S10 on a try that ends short of the goal line, wouldn’t it make sense  give S7 prior to S10 on a try that ends in the end zone? The purpose is the same: to let everybody know exactly why the try is unsuccessful.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2023, 07:35:24 AM »
This debate may be settled by: NFHS 8-5-3 : It is a touchback when:

     8-5-3a : Any free kick or scrimmage kick:

       8-5-3a(2) :Which is a THREE-POINT field-goal attempt, in flight touches a K player in R's end zone, or after breaking  the plane of R's goal line is unsuccessful.

If your NCAA has a simular rule, then a lously PAT kick is just that, only a lously kick and off to free kick land.....

If the NCAA doesn't have such a rule...let the debate continue  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
 
 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2023, 11:48:06 AM »
This debate may be settled by: NFHS 8-5-3 : It is a touchback when:

     8-5-3a : Any free kick or scrimmage kick:

       8-5-3a(2) :Which is a THREE-POINT field-goal attempt, in flight touches a K player in R's end zone, or after breaking  the plane of R's goal line is unsuccessful.

If your NCAA has a simular rule, then a lously PAT kick is just that, only a lously kick and off to free kick land.....

If the NCAA doesn't have such a rule...let the debate continue  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:
 
 

Ralph, in NCAA, a scrimmage kick (punt or field goal attempt), whether during a regular scrimmage down or during a try, remains alive until it touches the ground in the end zone UNTOUCHED by Team B (receiving team), goes out of bounds (including touching any part of the goal (the goal, not the goal line)), or comes into possession of a Team A player after having crossed the NZ. Note that a field goal attempt that strikes the goal causes the ball to become dead, but it may still score, if it then manages to pass above the crossbar and between the uprights (from the field of play side to the out of bounds side of the goal), untouched by Team A, and before touching the ground (anywhere).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 01:26:30 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2023, 03:27:10 PM »
And if the mechanics manual says to give a dead ball signal prior to S10 on a try that ends short of the goal line, wouldn’t it make sense  give S7 prior to S10 on a try that ends in the end zone? The purpose is the same: to let everybody know exactly why the try is unsuccessful.

When the down ends short of, but near the goal line, the manual says to use S7 - Dead-ball, then S10 - Unsuccessful Try. There you go. The down is over. Unsuccessful try. Go to the kickoff. The same would be appropriate when the ball becomes dead behind the defending team's goal line, and the attacking team provided the impetus. S7 - Dead-ball, then S10 - Unsuccessful Try. Go to the kickoff.

Now, this is probably the only place in the manual that says to use the dead-ball signal when there is no game clock or play clock involved. When the down ends beyond the line-to-gain, we are directed to NOT use S7 - only use S3 (stop the clock). Same for out of bounds. Same for incomplete passes. Using it for an unsuccessful try seems really stupid. Just like for an incomplete pass, a whistle and S10 gets the job done. The manual gives some garbage about eliminating confusion with the RO, coaches, fans, etc. If an RO doesn't know that S10 means the down is over and the ruling on the field is that neither team scored, he/she needs to move to Hawaii and sit on the beach full time. Coaches? We'll explain it to them. Fans? We could talk until we're blue in the face and they won't get it. Just wasting neurons worrying about them.

Now, should 8-4-2-b-1 (unsuccessful field goal) be edited to read: "Except following a try or in an extra period, Team B will snap the ball..."?  IMHO, yes. That would resolve all mis-coordination and misunderstanding.

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 04:59:32 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline lonnieritch1981

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2023, 01:33:13 PM »
Since B's fumble put this ball in A's EZ I think this has to be a touch back. There is no score and the next play will be a KO from the 35 or 40 depending on whether this is a high school or college game. If not, please advise.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2023, 03:29:26 PM »
Since B's fumble put this ball in A's EZ I think this has to be a touch back. There is no score and the next play will be a KO from the 35 or 40 depending on whether this is a high school or college game. If not, please advise.

Hence, the essence of the discussion. It CAN'T be a touchback, by description, since a touchback requires that the defending team next put the ball in play by snap at the defending team's 20/25 yard line. This is nothing but an unsuccessful try. No different than if the ball carrier (either team) is tackled and downed in the field of play. The appropriate signal is just S10. And the next down following a try is a kickoff from the B-35 (NCAA).
This does require a pure reading, and understanding, of the rules. If you have this happen, and you use S7 (moved side-to-side), nobody is going to fire you. But, it would be same as using S7 - dead ball (without moving the arm side-to-side). Wrong signal. Yeah. OK. The ball is dead, but the sole function of signal S7 (no movement) is to let the play clock operator know that the ball is dead AND the play clock should begin for the next down (since it should only be used when no other signal that also makes the ball dead is to be used, like incomplete pass, time-out, touchdown). In the case of a try, the play clock for the next down (a kickoff) starts on the referee's signal. So, S7 is simply inappropriate.
If you want to be better than average, learn to use the one correct signal at the correct time.
In the down under discussion, the result of the down is simply an unsuccessful try. It is not a touchback. Use S10. Only. Get the teams separated and moving to the kickoff, then, likewise, move to your kickoff position.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2023, 01:30:18 AM »
When the down ends short of, but near the goal line, the manual says to use S7 - Dead-ball, then S10 - Unsuccessful Try. There you go. The down is over. Unsuccessful try. Go to the kickoff. The same would be appropriate when the ball becomes dead behind the defending team's goal line, and the attacking team provided the impetus. S7 - Dead-ball, then S10 - Unsuccessful Try. Go to the kickoff.

Now, this is probably the only place in the manual that says to use the dead-ball signal when there is no game clock or play clock involved. When the down ends beyond the line-to-gain, we are directed to NOT use S7 - only use S3 (stop the clock). Same for out of bounds. Same for incomplete passes. Using it for an unsuccessful try seems really stupid. Just like for an incomplete pass, a whistle and S10 gets the job done. The manual gives some garbage about eliminating confusion with the RO, coaches, fans, etc. If an RO doesn't know that S10 means the down is over and the ruling on the field is that neither team scored, he/she needs to move to Hawaii and sit on the beach full time. Coaches? We'll explain it to them. Fans? We could talk until we're blue in the face and they won't get it. Just wasting neurons worrying about them.

Now, should 8-4-2-b-1 (unsuccessful field goal) be edited to read: "Except following a try or in an extra period, Team B will snap the ball..."?  IMHO, yes. That would resolve all mis-coordination and misunderstanding.

I've told you baby from time to time
But you just wouldn't listen or pay me no mind
Now I'm movin' on, I'm rollin' on
You've broken your vow and it's all over now
So I'm movin' on
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How does paragraph 2 square with the proposed rules change to not stop the game clock on a first down by A outside the last 2 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters? If the proposal is approved, then S7 would be the only correct signal in this situation, unless we are "under 2".

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2023, 08:09:30 AM »
How does paragraph 2 square with the proposed rules change to not stop the game clock on a first down by A outside the last 2 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters? If the proposal is approved, then S7 would be the only correct signal in this situation, unless we are "under 2".

Haven’t seen anything regarding mechanics, but, for the new clock rule for first downs inbounds (outside 2 mins in each half) it certainly seems like the only appropriate signal would be S7 (dead ball). Simple and easy enough.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2023, 09:00:03 PM »
When the down ends short of, but near the goal line, the manual says to use S7 - Dead-ball, then S10 - Unsuccessful Try.

Don't have my HS or NCAA books handy today but does the mechanics manual (HS or NCAA) specify who (which official) gives which signal?  At the HS level I've always been told that as a short wing, if the try is unsuccessful, to use S7 or S10 (depending on the play), but to let the referee actually signal that the try was not good. Which, to me, makes sense, because if there is a foul on the play that I don't have the flag for, the success or failure of the try is not determined until the result of the foul is established.  Just wondering if it's codified as such.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 09:02:08 PM by dammitbobby »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Silly question of the day
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2023, 09:42:34 PM »
Don't have my HS or NCAA books handy today but does the mechanics manual (HS or NCAA) specify who (which official) gives which signal?  At the HS level I've always been told that as a short wing, if the try is unsuccessful, to use S7 or S10 (depending on the play), but to let the referee actually signal that the try was not good. Which, to me, makes sense, because if there is a foul on the play that I don't have the flag for, the success or failure of the try is not determined until the result of the foul is established.  Just wondering if it's codified as such.

If you are the covering official when a BC crosses the goal line, and you have no idea that the U has a flag down for holding, how do know to just stop the clock? You don’t. No different with an unsuccessful try. Unless you are the one with the flag, give S10. If other circumstances in which you weren’t directly involved will result in a repeat of the Try, the R simply makes the appropriate announcement. It is not an error to use S10 when there is also a foul. Now, if you have the flag, and acceptance of the penalty will change the result of the down, then, by all means, use S3 (stop the clock), and report to the referee.
This is an instance when a field mic is enormously beneficial.