Author Topic: Scrimmage kicks during a down  (Read 7007 times)

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Offline UMPIRE67

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Scrimmage kicks during a down
« on: October 13, 2016, 02:15:11 PM »
Can we have more than one legal kick during a down?  More specifically A/K has a punt blocked (assume the ball was kicked)  behind the line of scrimmage, A/K recovers and punts the ball again?

ALStripes17

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2016, 02:33:04 PM »
Can we have more than one legal kick during a down?  More specifically A/K has a punt blocked (assume the ball was kicked)  behind the line of scrimmage, A/K recovers and punts the ball again?
Absolutely. If K recovers a kick in or behind the neutral zone, they can advance by any means necessary. Kicking again at that point is still allowed. As is running the ball... Or passing it :)

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Offline bbeagle

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 03:06:07 PM »
Play: A 4th and 10 at B10. Field goal attempt. A1's kick is blocked. Ball on ground at B5. B66 tries to pick up the ball and run with it, muffs it back to the B15, where A1 gains possession of the ball and drop kicks it from the B14, and it goes between the uprights.

In a 5 man game, are the BJ and LJ supposed to maintain their positions throughout the play? Or who is there to rule on the field goal?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 07:43:28 AM »
Play: A 4th and 10 at B10. Field goal attempt. A1's kick is blocked. Ball on ground at B5. B66 tries to pick up the ball and run with it, muffs it back to the B15, where A1 gains possession of the ball and drop kicks it from the B14, and it goes between the uprights.

In a 5 man game, are the BJ and LJ supposed to maintain their positions throughout the play? Or who is there to rule on the field goal?
On the last successful drop kick that I was privileged to view (NFL - Doug Fultie -Pats - on a PAT),the BJ was directly under the pipes and made the call. IMHO, in our mechanics the BJ should hold the end line throughout the play while the wing wings it back toward his sideline.

Regarding the OP, the only concerns that WH should have with the second kick is ;
  (1) was it made behind the LOS?
  (2) did the kicker have possession of the ball? -many kickers were former soccer players and kicking a bouncing loose ball may be an instinct not forgotten.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 08:40:48 AM »
Play: A 4th and 10 at B10. Field goal attempt. A1's kick is blocked. Ball on ground at B5. B66 tries to pick up the ball and run with it, muffs it back to the B15, where A1 gains possession of the ball and drop kicks it from the B14, and it goes between the uprights.

I will interrupt at this point for a "yeah, right". Pray continue. :D

Quote
In a 5 man game, are the BJ and LJ supposed to maintain their positions throughout the play? Or who is there to rule on the field goal?

In situations where there is a problem with the kick, our mechanic is for wing to bust his butt to the back corner of the end zone so that he can look down the sideline, and then work his way to the pylon (or further upfield, as needed). Since we snapped at the 10, BJ will hold the end line.

If it was a longer FG try, then the BJ needs to cover the goalline; as soon as there is kick trouble, he would come straight forward to cover the GL as per a normal play snapped between the 10 and the 25.

Offline J12

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 09:50:10 AM »

Offline ny_ftbl_ref

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2016, 10:21:25 AM »
Play: A 4th and 10 at B10. Field goal attempt. A1's kick is blocked. Ball on ground at B5. B66 tries to pick up the ball and run with it, muffs it back to the B15, where A1 gains possession of the ball and drop kicks it from the B14, and it goes between the uprights.

There are a few different scenarios which can occur with this play
K recovers a blocked kick behind the LOS and re-kicks
(a)   As stated they drop kick the ball between the uprights – Field Goal
(b)   K recovers the ball and more likely punts the ball through the uprights – Touchback
(c)   The ball is behind the LOS but not in possession – K kicks the ball through the uprights – we have an illegal kick – if accepted it is 15 yards from the spot of the foul and 4th down over or if they decline the penalty it is 1st down for R at the previous spot

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 10:46:15 AM »
Play: A 4th and 10 at B10. Field goal attempt. A1's kick is blocked. Ball on ground at B5. B66 tries to pick up the ball and run with it, muffs it back to the B15, where A1 gains possession of the ball and drop kicks it from the B14, and it goes between the uprights.

There are a few different scenarios which can occur with this play
K recovers a blocked kick behind the LOS and re-kicks
(a)   As stated they drop kick the ball between the uprights – Field Goal
(b)   K recovers the ball and more likely punts the ball through the uprights – Touchback
(c)   The ball is behind the LOS but not in possession – K kicks the ball through the uprights – we have an illegal kick – if accepted it is 15 yards from the spot of the foul and 4th down over or if they decline the penalty it is 1st down for R at the previous spot
Almost - in (c) declining the penalty the result of the play is a touchback (loose ball illegally kicked through opponent's end zone). While a missed field goal has differing succeeding spots in other codes, an illegal kick, I don't believe, would be treated as a missed field goal.

Offline J12

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2016, 12:43:56 PM »
Almost - in (c) declining the penalty the result of the play is a touchback (loose ball illegally kicked through opponent's end zone). While a missed field goal has differing succeeding spots in other codes, an illegal kick, I don't believe, would be treated as a missed field goal.


Declining the penalty (and thereby taking the result of the play) could NEVER be a successful field goal since the kick that put the ball through the uprights was NOT a legal kick.  Correct?

How about if we tweak (c) to have A/K illegally kick the ball INTO but not out of the endzone.  Is an illegal kick into the endzone still a kick into the endzone.  Can B/R run it out of the endzone?

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2016, 01:57:17 PM »
How about if we tweak (c) to have A/K illegally kick the ball INTO but not out of the endzone.  Is an illegal kick into the endzone still a kick into the endzone.  Can B/R run it out of the endzone?

Yup. The rules for when the ball is dead and for what is a touchback both specify a "free or scrimmage kick". The definition of illegal kick makes it clear that it is NOT a free or scrimmage kick. There's a line about "retains the same status as before the illegal kick" - so this is effectively a fumble. The trick, of course, is that the guys covering the GL would need to know that it was an illegal kick.

Worse, now consider what happens when that illegal kick goes into the EZ and the BJ blows his whistle because a kick crossed R's goal line...

Offline Ump33

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2016, 02:22:13 PM »
Yup. The rules for when the ball is dead and for what is a touchback both specify a "free or scrimmage kick". The definition of illegal kick makes it clear that it is NOT a free or scrimmage kick. There's a line about "retains the same status as before the illegal kick" - so this is effectively a fumble. The trick, of course, is that the guys covering the GL would need to know that it was an illegal kick.

Worse, now consider what happens when that illegal kick goes into the EZ and the BJ blows his whistle because a kick crossed R's goal line...
The way I read the question, in scenario "C", the muffed kick is behind the LOS and it is never possessed before K kicks the loose ball. By rule, it is still a kick (the original status of the loose ball was a kick) and 2-24-9 states "When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick." Therefor when the ball breaks the plane of the Goal Line, it is a touch back.
And no, if the ball/kick where to pass between the uprights it would not score because it had previously touched the ground (8-4-1b) 

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 06:02:13 PM »
The way I read the question, in scenario "C", the muffed kick is behind the LOS and it is never possessed before K kicks the loose ball. By rule, it is still a kick (the original status of the loose ball was a kick) and 2-24-9 states "When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick." Therefor when the ball breaks the plane of the Goal Line, it is a touch back.
And no, if the ball/kick where to pass between the uprights it would not score because it had previously touched the ground (8-4-1b)

Oh, hey, right - I'd managed to forget that the play started with a *legal* kick that was blocked...

So, I need to retract my original answer. Since the original kick has not ended, this is still a touchback.

Also, I am totally bringing this question to my next meeting. :D


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 12:13:30 PM »
The way I read the question, in scenario "C", the muffed kick is behind the LOS and it is never possessed before K kicks the loose ball. By rule, it is still a kick (the original status of the loose ball was a kick) and 2-24-9 states "When the ball is loose following an illegal kick, it retains the same status as prior to the illegal kick." Therefor when the ball breaks the plane of the Goal Line, it is a touch back.
And no, if the ball/kick where to pass between the uprights it would not score because it had previously touched the ground (8-4-1b)
A KICK IS A KICK...IS A KICK....AN ILLEGAL KICK OF A KICK IS STILL A KICK...

When we tweaked 2-24-9 a few years ago, it was because of a forward pass being broken up by a former soccer player who kicked the ball while still in the air. Back then an IK was treated as a fumble and as the players stood around watching the intended pass bounce on the ground, one quick thinker (probably Ivy League bound) scooped up the ball and strolled into the end zone.  ??? z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ ??? ,after a lengthily discussion, decided it was a ^good.

The rules committee, after a not so lengthily discussion, decided it was time for a change. :)

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 03:40:38 PM »
A KICK IS A KICK...IS A KICK....AN ILLEGAL KICK OF A KICK IS STILL A KICK...

When we tweaked 2-24-9 a few years ago, it was because of a forward pass being broken up by a former soccer player who kicked the ball while still in the air. Back then an IK was treated as a fumble and as the players stood around watching the intended pass bounce on the ground, one quick thinker (probably Ivy League bound) scooped up the ball and strolled into the end zone.  ??? z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ ??? ,after a lengthily discussion, decided it was a ^good.

The rules committee, after a not so lengthily discussion, decided it was time for a change. :)

I feel like Vizzini reading your post.

Clearly it wasn't A who kicked the ball, as why would they have broken up their own pass.

Clearly if B illegally kicked the ball and then a B player scooped and scored, the flag for the illegal kick (there *was* a flag... right?) would have nullified the touchdown.

But, as the quick thinker also bested my Spaniard, which means he must have studied, and in studying he must have learned that man is mortal, so he would have put the poison as far from himself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Therefore, CLEARLY, it was A who scooped and scored. However, the entire crew let the play go and nobody IW'd what everybody else would think was just an incomplete pass? Inconceivable!

Albeit impressive...

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Scrimmage kicks during a down
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 07:19:19 AM »
I feel like Vizzini reading your post.

Clearly it wasn't A who kicked the ball, as why would they have broken up their own pass.

Clearly if B illegally kicked the ball and then a B player scooped and scored, the flag for the illegal kick (there *was* a flag... right?) would have nullified the touchdown.

But, as the quick thinker also bested my Spaniard, which means he must have studied, and in studying he must have learned that man is mortal, so he would have put the poison as far from himself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Therefore, CLEARLY, it was A who scooped and scored. However, the entire crew let the play go and nobody IW'd what everybody else would think was just an incomplete pass? Inconceivable!

Albeit impressive...
So I was told.....

  ^flag ^flag ^flag flew as the forward pass/now illegal kick hit the ground, but no tweets :o. An A player scooped up the ball and off to the races. Sometimes "author embellishment" occurs in rule proposals and I'm unaware of the full details other than it appeared to be a rule that needed fixing.