Author Topic: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?  (Read 2225 times)

Offline bawags06

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USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« on: September 24, 2017, 08:36:32 AM »
Last few seconds of the game. A winning by two scores. For some reason, they run a play instead of taking a knee.

Ball on A-20. Runner progresses to A-30. Back at A-10 Bubba A and Bubba B are tied up then they separate. B gives A an extra hard shot... then A retaliates and they re-engage forcefully and 25 yards from the ball.

Downfield, the runner is brought down by a host of B players at about A-35. Play is over. Downed runner A-13 places both hands on the helmet of B defender on the ground and pushes off to stand up and struts away.


What do you have?


Context: Not a particularly chippy game.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 03:29:23 PM by bawags06 »

Offline PABJNR

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USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 09:36:01 AM »
I have all dead ball fouls so we don't have another snap.


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Offline bawags06

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 09:55:56 AM »
I should have clarified. Last 70 seconds or so...but enough time that another snap had to happen.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 10:54:21 AM »
Make it UNS whenever you can. That sends a message.
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Offline dch

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 05:48:27 AM »
I thought unsportsmanlike fouls are non contact.

Offline OHref71

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 07:10:18 AM »
Yes if there is contact in fed it is a personal foul all of these would be personal fouls. 

Offline ncwingman

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 07:37:31 AM »
If it's the first real chippiness in the game, then by rule all of these contact fouls would be personal fouls.

If the game had been chippy, and both teams had been warned that the after-the-whistle/away-from-the-play extra shots need to stop, then they are "not complying with a game officials request" which is unsportsmanlike conduct. Where you cross that line is the judgement call of all judgement calls.

Offline CalhounLJ

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USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 08:10:06 AM »
Last few seconds of the game. A winning by two scores. For some reason, they run a play instead of taking a knee.

Ball on A-20. Runner progresses to A-30. Back at A-10 Bubba A and Bubba B are tied up then they separate. B gives A an extra hard shot... then A retaliates and they re-engage forcefully and 25 yards from the ball.

Downfield, the runner is brought down by a host of B players at about A-35. Play is over. Downed runner A-13 places both hands on the helmet of B defender on the ground and pushes off to stand up and struts away.


What do you have?


Context: Not a particularly chippy game.
This seems pretty straightforward to me. live ball personal fouls by both teams so we gonna replay the down after marking off A's dead ball foul. Umpire is going to stand over the ball, I'm going to wind the clock on the ready, and we all going home.


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Offline BIG UMP

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 08:53:54 AM »
All PFs don't make up rules.
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 08:58:15 AM »
Key words ”WHENEVER YOU CAN.” Nobody is saying anything about making up rules. But if there is any sort or question about the action, UNS is the better choice.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 09:13:32 AM »
If it's the first real chippiness in the game, then by rule all of these contact fouls would be personal fouls.  Where you cross that line is the judgement call of all judgement calls.

"One size NEVER fits all", which may be why both NFHS 9-4 (Illegal Personal Contact) and NFHS 9-5 (Noncontact USC by Players) provide necessary ambiguity to allow for flexibility and (the exclusive) JUDGEMENT (of field officials).

To help try and explain 9-4, a list of 14 examples, of an infinite potential is provided.  Whereas 9-5 provides a list of 8 examples to support the instruction, "No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume responsibility for the contest."

A general consensus may well be, the difference is Personal fouls (usually) involve inappropriate contact, whereas USC fouls relate to inappropriate behavior (which may, or may not involve or include inappropriate contact).

Offline CalhounLJ

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USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 09:41:24 AM »
"One size NEVER fits all", which may be why both NFHS 9-4 (Illegal Personal Contact) and NFHS 9-5 (Noncontact USC by Players) provide necessary ambiguity to allow for flexibility and (the exclusive) JUDGEMENT (of field officials).

To help try and explain 9-4, a list of 14 examples, of an infinite potential is provided.  Whereas 9-5 provides a list of 8 examples to support the instruction, "No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume responsibility for the contest."

A general consensus may well be, the difference is Personal fouls (usually) involve inappropriate contact, whereas USC fouls relate to inappropriate behavior (which may, or may not involve or include inappropriate contact).
I agree. I can see the action by A at the end of the play being USC even though contact was involved.


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Offline bawags06

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2017, 11:36:29 AM »
I called offsetting live ball personal fouls on the bubbas in the backfield.

I went to UNS at the end of the play because, in my opinion it was clearly taunting. There was contact, but it was meant to be insulting not a physical shot.

The coach pulled the UNS player off the field, and everyone else settled down. They then took a knee and we all went home.

I debated with myself over the contact and the UNS, but came down on the side of taunting is taunting.
Rule 9-5-1a: "Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which engenders ill will.
    NOTE:The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule, or demean others under any circumstances."

Pushing off another player's helmet to stand up, to me, falls clearly into this category even though the title of Rule 9-5 is "Noncontact Unsportsmanlike Conduct By Players"

Offline NoVaBJ

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 01:43:22 PM »
Key words ”WHENEVER YOU CAN.” Nobody is saying anything about making up rules. But if there is any sort or question about the action, UNS is the better choice.

If there is physical contact, there is no question about the action or the applicable rule under the NFHS code.

UNS and accumulation does not enter into the equation for a contact foul. If it's flagrant, you chuck the player and march 15. If it's not, you march 15.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 02:50:44 PM »
I called offsetting live ball personal fouls on the bubbas in the backfield.

I went to UNS at the end of the play because, in my opinion it was clearly taunting. There was contact, but it was meant to be insulting not a physical shot.

The coach pulled the UNS player off the field, and everyone else settled down. They then took a knee and we all went home.

I debated with myself over the contact and the UNS, but came down on the side of taunting is taunting.
Rule 9-5-1a: "Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which engenders ill will.
    NOTE:The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule, or demean others under any circumstances."

Pushing off another player's helmet to stand up, to me, falls clearly into this category even though the title of Rule 9-5 is "Noncontact Unsportsmanlike Conduct By Players"

I think you did the right thing.  If you need non-contact justification for UNS, then "struts away" qualifies.  The main thing is to calm everybody down, remind them all not to do anything stupid, and get out without further incident.  It sounds like you did that, so good job.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 03:51:21 PM »
Doesn't a personal foul (contact) usually precede a unsportsmanlike foul (non-contact).

Like, a B1 hovering over A1, then A1 saying 'HACK off', then B1 shoving A1, then A1 shoving B2?

It would seem that you could always call the worse foul, the UNS, when there are two 'fouls' by each player, the taunts, then the shoves. But every game I've been involved in, when these actions occur, and it gets physical, the lesser of the 2 fouls is called - the PF on each player, then offsetting.

Why?


Offline bawags06

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Re: USC, Personal Foul, or Both?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 10:40:35 AM »
In your example, the contact personal foul followed the UNS, not preceded it.

I think the answer lies in your definition of "baiting, demeaning, or embarrassing." I would contend that most personal fouls like that are prompted by adrenaline and emotion, not intent to demean or taunt. Two guys who just locked up physically on the play are going to have their emotions running high.

"C'Mon!! LET'S GO. YOU WANT SOME?" to me, is part of the physicality of the game. To a certain point, obviously and is not usually enough to draw a UNS.