Author Topic: Penalties on B during running plays  (Read 2516 times)

Offline bmem66

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Penalties on B during running plays
« on: September 27, 2017, 11:11:17 AM »
Are all penalty enforcement fouls on B during a running plays tacked onto the end of the run?  I heard this statement and play below and it doesn't seem right but I can't find a scenario when it would not be true.   Seems like a pretty general statement.   

A30 carries the ball from the A20 to the A28 and is tackled.    At the LOS, B78 holds.  Is it marked off from the flag at the LOS and is now 1st and 10 for A at the A30 or do we add it on to the end of the run and it is now first and 10 for A at the A38?   

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 11:18:54 AM »
Short answer, all fouls by B on running plays are tack-ons.

All fouls are enforced from the basic spot (except one -- a foul by A behind the basic spot, but since this is a foul by B, that cannot apply here). The basic spot on a running play is the end of the run.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »
The end of run enforcement on B fouls is usually fair if the run ends beyond the LOS. The inequitable situation is runs that end behind the LOS. A couple of examples:

(1) QB sacked by PFFM 18 yards behind LOS = replay the down with 3 yard net loss.

(2) QB again sacked 18 yards behind LOS as B holds his primary receiver downfield = replay the down with a 3 yard loss.

(3) I've had 3 proposals (one with Bossman's help) to make fouls by B in such situations to be enforced from previous spot.

They have all failed, as they were tied in with making fouls by A behind LOS also previous spot fouls, negating the all-but-one principle.

Some day we may be able to get the change passed, as if the pass was gotten off, previous spot would apply. Wish me/us luck.
 

Offline bmem66

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 01:32:38 PM »
Ralph

For point 2 above, wouldn't these offset if the QB was sacked by PFFM for a 18 yard loss and B hold?    If it was just the holding on B and no foul on A, we would have a 10 yard mark off from the LOS, replay the down for a 28 yard field position change - 18 for the sack and 10 for the hold by B - correct?  Not trying to split hairs but just want to understand if it happens in a game.  Thank you. 

I am all for the enforcing the foul from the LOS and eliminating the all but one.   Our crew had a very big discussion about this last season where our R insisted that a hold behind the LOS by A on a pass play was enforced from the LOS.   One example where it didn't seem to work is if the A QB is scrambling 20 yards behind the line and A75 holds B81 20 yards behind the LOS to avoid the QB taking sack.   By enforcing from the LOS, you are basically letting the A player save his quarterback and the max is a 10 yard penalty.  In a sense it punishes good defense.   


Offline CalhounLJ

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Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 01:50:13 PM »
You may want to reread (2) again. I'm not seeing a foul by A.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 01:52:36 PM »
You may want to reread (2) again. I'm not seeing a foul by A.
Also, the holding foul by B is marked off from end or run not previous spot. 

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Offline bmem66

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 02:12:37 PM »
Now I am really confused.  OK not foul on A in point two but how do you get a 3 yard loss?   If these is a 18 yard sack by B but B holds at the LOS, they didn't get any of those yard with clean hands....they held A to get a 18 yard loss.   Why wouldn't we mark off a 10 yard holding penalty on B from the point of the hold which is also the LOS?  OR, if we mark the 10 off from the end of the run, wouldn't it be a 8 yard loss (18-10 = 8) and replay the down?   

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 02:41:24 PM »
No B fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul.

For point 2, it should be an 8 yard loss because of the 10 yard penalty (not 15).

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2017, 02:48:32 PM »
After further review, "No B fouls are ever enforced from the spot of the foul." is a bit over stated -- after a change of possession, the team that did not put the ball in play still retains the designation "B", although they are now the "offense" to which ABO would apply.

Therefore, a technically more correct statement would be "No fouls by the team not in possession of the ball at the time of the foul are ever enforced from the spot of the foul"

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 03:43:00 PM »
Now I am really confused.  OK not foul on A in point two but how do you get a 3 yard loss?   If these is a 18 yard sack by B but B holds at the LOS, they didn't get any of those yard with clean hands....they held A to get a 18 yard loss.   Why wouldn't we mark off a 10 yard holding penalty on B from the point of the hold which is also the LOS?  OR, if we mark the 10 off from the end of the run, wouldn't it be a 8 yard loss (18-10 = 8) and replay the down?
Once again, read (2) slowly. Here it is for your convenience:
(2) QB again sacked 18 yards behind LOS as B holds his primary receiver downfield = replay the down with a 3 yard loss.
We see two things: 1 - there is no foul by A, we got that.
@ - the foul by B happened downfield, not at the LOS. (Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, but just to be accurate.)
As the others have said, no foul by B is EVER marked off from the spot of the foul. All fouls by the team not in possession are marked off either from the previous spot,(loose ball plays), or the end of the run (running play). Since this play is a running play, we go to the end of the run, which is 18 yds behind the LOS, mark off the 10yd penalty, which leaves us with a net of -8.(sorry, Ralph).. Now, the dilemma you sense is very real, in that it seems like the defense benefitted from their foul, but when you think about it carefully, they didn't. if there had been no foul by B, the offense would have lost 18 yds. as it is , they only lost 8, with an opportunity to replay. Granted, there is the argument that if B had not held A would not have been sacked. That is the motivation for seeking to get this rule changed to a previous spot markoff..
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 03:44:45 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline bmem66

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »
Now, the dilemma you sense is very real, in that it seems like the defense benefited from their foul, but when you think about it carefully, they didn't. if there had been no foul by B, the offense would have lost 18 yds. as it is , they only lost 8, with an opportunity to replay. Granted, there is the argument that if B had not held A would not have been sacked.

The explanation above is what I was looking for.  Thanks

   

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 05:42:46 PM »
I got into a bit of a "heated discussion" with a fellow official about the philosophy of what to call when the QB doesn't throw the ball *because* of a flagged defensive holding. He was arguing that it was actually pass interference because it interfered with the ability to throw the pass since it "disabled" the intended eligible receiver.

But wait, it gets worse.

Since the pass interference involves a pass, that's a loose ball play, and the enforcement spot has to be from the previous spot -- despite the fact that the ball was never thrown or otherwise "loose".

I don't think I convinced him he was completely incorrect, but he did agree never to actually try to enforce that nonsense.

At the end, I think he then made it his mission to tell QBs to intentionally fumble the ball after such a hold -- this WOULD result in previous spot enforcement since it is now a loose ball play behind the LOS. Even if the defense recovered the fumble and scored, they didn't get it with clean hands so A keeps the ball after penalty enforcement from the previous spot... and I'm quoting here... "making their humiliation all the greater".

When people say ABO is "Enforce what hurts them the most", I sure hope that's not what they mean.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2017, 05:46:24 PM »
I got into a bit of a "heated discussion" with a fellow official about the philosophy of what to call when the QB doesn't throw the ball *because* of a flagged defensive holding. He was arguing that it was actually pass interference because it interfered with the ability to throw the pass since it "disabled" the intended eligible receiver.

But wait, it gets worse.

Since the pass interference involves a pass, that's a loose ball play, and the enforcement spot has to be from the previous spot -- despite the fact that the ball was never thrown or otherwise "loose".

I don't think I convinced him he was completely incorrect, but he did agree never to actually try to enforce that nonsense.

At the end, I think he then made it his mission to tell QBs to intentionally fumble the ball after such a hold -- this WOULD result in previous spot enforcement since it is now a loose ball play behind the LOS. Even if the defense recovered the fumble and scored, they didn't get it with clean hands so A keeps the ball after penalty enforcement from the previous spot... and I'm quoting here... "making their humiliation all the greater".

When people say ABO is "Enforce what hurts them the most", I sure hope that's not what they mean.
Lol. I heard the same argument from a coach one time. Corner tackled his TE in the flat and QB had to eat it. He was like, that's PI. I'm like, there was no pass to interfere with. 😳he was like, we called a pass in the huddle. I'm like, but you didn't throw it.


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« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 05:48:05 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 07:06:55 AM »
CORRECTION : Holding = 10 yard penalty
                                    18-10 = 8

I'm usually better in math than that....15,873 X 7 = 111,111  :)

There are many, myself included, that support the all-but-one principle and to change it to previous spot to accommodate fouls by A behind the LOS does not receive our support. Without that change, making B fouls when run ends behind the LOS will be hard.

Sorry, guys, for the math fumble ^no   

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 07:56:39 AM »


At the end, I think he then made it his mission to tell QBs to intentionally fumble the ball after such a hold -- this WOULD result in previous spot enforcement since it is now a loose ball play behind the LOS. Even if the defense recovered the fumble and scored, they didn't get it with clean hands so A keeps the ball after penalty enforcement from the previous spot.

When people say ABO is "Enforce what hurts them the most", I sure hope that's not what they mean.

A very knowledgeable coach (and former active participant on this board) believed something very similar - if his QB was sacked and the defender grabbed the facemark, he taught them to "intentionally" fumble on the way down.  Seems risky though - what if the officials didn't see the FM foul?

IMO - "enforce what hurts them the most" is going to get you in trouble sooner or later.

Offline animalspooker

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2017, 09:14:19 AM »
I'm usually better in math than that....15,873 X 7 = 111,111  :)

That's a lot of touchdowns.  I feel like I had that game last night.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2017, 08:22:02 AM »
I'm usually better in math than that....15,873 X 7 = 111,111  :)

That's a lot of touchdowns.  I feel like I had that game last night.
;D Actually it's a math bet you can't lose. In Mainerspeak:

"Chummy, betcha' I can multiply faster then your fancy pocket calculator ;)"

Chummy: "Betcha' ya' can't."

"Let's take a 5-didgit number..uh...how 'bout ...uh...
15,873 ???"

Chummy : "Ayuh, 'spect that would be a good one."

"Now I'm taking a number 'tween 1 and 10, you take one, too, and I'll multiply your number by my number by...what was that...15,873... and give you the answer before you can git it on your fancy gadget !"

Chummy : "Ayuh, 'spect I'll pick 4 :-\ "

"I'm picking 7 AND 7 times 4 times 15,873 is 444,444"

Chummy : "Hoky pete, BUBBA, you nailed 'er ! :o 'Spect ya smart in school, ayuh."

Editor's note : You casually bring 2 constants into the bet. Always choose 15,873 and 7. 15,873 X 7 =111,111. What ever number the other guy picks is merely times 111,111. 15,873 X 7 X 4 = 444,444.

 :puke: 8] :puke: 8] :puke: 8] :puke: 8] nAnA

...now back to football..... 

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2017, 04:31:44 PM »
Congratulations (albeit begrudgingly) on the Sox Eastern Div championship.  Now the fun begins. Here's hoping the winner comes from the back half of the alphabet.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalties on B during running plays
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 08:02:20 AM »
Congratulations (albeit begrudgingly) on the Sox Eastern Div championship.  Now the fun begins. Here's hoping the winner comes from the back half of the alphabet.
Thanks, Yankee Al, I'd love to see a Sox/Yanks league championship :). Check your PM for further discussion :).