Author Topic: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP  (Read 774 times)

Offline Patrick E.

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Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« on: September 27, 2017, 01:13:16 PM »
K is winning 21-20.  K's ball on the K 1-yard line. 4th down and 10. Three seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.

K cannot take a safety, they don't want to risk a bad snap exchange, and they have an all-state long snapper with blood lines to Justin Snow.  K feels their best chance is a punt.  It's supposed to be punted OOB, but things don't always go as planned.

R19 catches K's punt at the K 30-yard line.  While R19 is returning the kick R78 holds at the K 20-yard line. K49 tackles R19 by the Face Mask (Personal Foul) at the K 6-yard line. 

During the play, the period ends.

Because R is last in possession, they have to make the first choice of penalty enforcement.

All possible (but not probable) options:

1.  R accepts K's PF FM penalty; K accepts R's Hold; untimed down for K from the K 1-yard line
2.  R accepts K's PF FM penalty; K declines R's Hold; untimed down for R from K 3-yard line
3.  R decline K's PF FM to keep the ball.  K accepts R's Hold; untimed down for R from K 30-yard line
4.  R decline K's PF FM to keep the ball.  K declines R's Hold; the game ends

Armed with the knowledge that if R declines the K penalty, then K will likely decline the R penalty and end the game (option 4), R may want to accept the K penalty and force K to make another snap at the K 1-yard line (option 1).

Option 2 & 3 are not even mentioned to the R Captain / Coach in Earshot.

Am I missing anything?

Thank you in advance.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 01:34:57 PM »
"Coach/Mr. Captain, if you decline the face mask penalty, the game is over.  You're going to want to accept their penalty, and they'll accept the holding penalty, so we'll replay 4th down."

Don't give them a chance to screw it up.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 01:54:35 PM »
Perfect summary VA   :bOW

+1
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 02:37:59 PM »
Thank you.  10-2-1 c seems to say that option 2 in the OP isn't a valid option.  R's acceptance of K's foul automatically makes it a double foul.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 03:27:04 PM »
This is a great play that illustrates the "order of operations" of administering fouls.  We often just "automatically" go through this one and decline K's foul and enforce R's foul, but in this critical situation, we need to know the nuts and bolts of the rule.  10-2-2b

Offline bmem66

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 07:36:14 PM »
In this senario, R is going to want another play and K wants to end the game. Since R has the ball last and has to decide first, they definitely will accept the penalty and take an untimed down at either the 3 (if K declined) or rekick (if K accepts).   Why would R decline?   If they decline and K declines the game is over.  If they decline and K accepts, they get another play from the 30.   I think I am correct in this thinking. Am I?

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 07:58:21 PM »
bmem66 - I don't think there is the option of an untimed down at either the 3 (if K declined).  10-2-1c says once R accepts, the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.  This implies K doesn't get an option to decline.

Online PABJNR

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Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 08:19:55 PM »
It becomes a double foul. Captains are not consulted for a double foul by rule, the down is replayed.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Rule 10-2, 3-3 and COP
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 07:30:53 AM »
"Coach/Mr. Captain, if you decline the face mask penalty, the game is over.  You're going to want to accept their penalty, and they'll accept the holding penalty, so we'll replay 4th down."

Don't give them a chance to screw it up.

Excellent, VALC, in this critical situation we may want to also involve K's coach and captain so everyone understands what did and will occur.
Possible procedure :

(1) Ask wing officials to bring both coaches out to be with their captains;

(2) WH sez' to the gathered group : "Guys, BY RULE, with both teams fouling as time ran out we can have an untimed down. IF the receivers take the facemask penalty it becomes a double foul and we replay the down, otherwise the game will end. Can I assume (looking at R's captain and coach) you will want to replay the down ?"

(3) Coach or captain's response :
   "Ayuh, 'spect so"
          or,
   "Can't we just decline their penalty and keep the ball ?"
WH : "You could, but the kickers could then decline your penalty and BY RULE the game would be over."
Coach : "Ayuh, you're probably even smarter than our governor."

The ending of this game may be debated long and loud if both coaches don't understand what is about to happen.