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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: SouthGARef on February 08, 2018, 09:15:19 AM

Title: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 08, 2018, 09:15:19 AM
https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/football-rules-changes-2018/

Only one real meaningful change. Allowing R to tack on fouls by K during kick plays. Good change.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: FLAHL on February 08, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
Sorry to see that there are no changes to speed up the game.  On a positive note, looks like I might get by without updating my Redding Study Guide this year. 
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: stevegarbs on February 08, 2018, 02:13:37 PM
Whole lotta nuthin' going on here. Nice to get a break for a year, I guess.  8]
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Curious on February 08, 2018, 03:48:59 PM
I do like the "failure to wear" penalty to player removal; and ESPECIALLY the "tack-on" provision for K's fouls during free kicks!!!! Ralph, did you have something to do with the latter?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: KWH on February 08, 2018, 06:08:55 PM
Sorry to see that there are no changes to speed up the game.  On a positive note, looks like I might get by without updating my Redding Study Guide this year.

Is there a some reason or some need to speed up the NFHS game?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Rich on February 08, 2018, 08:45:38 PM
Because there are way too many games pushing 3 hours.  At the HS level, that's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: KWH on February 09, 2018, 02:44:18 AM
Because there are way too many games pushing 3 hours.  At the HS level, that's ridiculous.

Rich - The numbers provided by the NFHS do not to support your claim:

2017 NFHS Football Play-off Game Statistics Summary
Total (not avg) length of all games reported from kickoff to final horn.
Number of games reported is italicized and in [Brackets]
2007 - 2:20 [567]
2008 - 2:19 [675]
2009 - 2:19 [783]
2010 - 2:15 [737]
2011 - 2:18 [819]
2012 - 2:29 [765]
2013 - 2:19 [682]
2014 - 2:20 [642]
2015 - 2:16 [602]
2016 - 2:17 [415]
2017 - 2:15 [506]
26 States participated in 2017 survey: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii,
Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana; Nebraska, Oklahoma,
Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, West Virgina, Wisconsin, and Wyoming
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: refjeff on February 09, 2018, 07:14:50 AM
Rich - The numbers provided by the NFHS do not to support your claim:

2017 NFHS Football Play-off Game Statistics Summary
Total (not avg) length of all games reported from kickoff to final horn.
Number of games reported is italicized and in [Brackets]
2007 - 2:20 [567]
2008 - 2:19 [675]
2009 - 2:19 [783]
2010 - 2:15 [737]
2011 - 2:18 [819]
2012 - 2:29 [765]
2013 - 2:19 [682]
2014 - 2:20 [642]
2015 - 2:16 [602]
2016 - 2:17 [415]
2017 - 2:15 [506]
26 States participated in 2017 survey: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii,
Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana; Nebraska, Oklahoma,
Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, West Virgina, Wisconsin, and Wyoming

I don't understand.  In 2017 how can the total length of 506 games be 2 hours and 15 minutes? 

I don't even believe that out of 506 games the longest was 2:15.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bama_stripes on February 09, 2018, 07:19:09 AM
These are for playoff games only?  If so, I can see why they are lower than the actual average of all varsity games:  Higher quality of play = fewer penalties, fewer incomplete passes, fewer scores, etc.
(FWIW, the average time of state championship games here this season was 2:39.)

I've had very few games in the past 8 years or so that were even close to 2:15 total time.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 09, 2018, 08:19:19 AM
I do like the "failure to wear" penalty to player removal; and ESPECIALLY the "tack-on" provision for K's fouls during free kicks!!!! Ralph, did you have something to do with the latter?
The tack-on rule was proposed by the author of the rule outlawing the Oregonian Flea Flicker several years ago. I supported it and it also includes scrimmage kicks. A proposed play:

    Ball @ K's 30, 4th & 10....

(1) Hans, usually a powerful punter, steps into a 'tatter rut as he kicks a high pop-up that travels to K's 40;
(2) while ball is bouncing around, K's big ole' Bubba waddles down to see  what he is missing;
(3) Bubba spies R's little Sugerfoot watching the bouncing ball;
(4) Bubba lights up lil' Sugerfoot while the ball is still bouncing;
(5) ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag :thumbup (5-man crew);
(6) Bubba is excused from further participation;

(7a) YESTERDAY - R would probably decline foul that would cause K to re-kick and take the field position;
(7b) TOMMORROW - R would accept the penalty enforced from the end of the kick.

Some good things come out of the Northwest  tiphat: tiphat:
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: TampaSteve on February 09, 2018, 08:35:34 AM
Is there a some reason or some need to speed up the NFHS game?
it's been discussed ad nauseam.
But in short, as another said: 3-hour HS game is crazy, but sadly the norm for some parts of the country.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: TampaSteve on February 09, 2018, 08:38:17 AM
i must say, the least changes i've seen in a while
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 09, 2018, 09:02:10 AM
i must say, the least changes i've seen in a while
Two years ago we only had one real change when we hulled legal clipping in FBZ. Last year we passed 11. This year there were 47 proposals. I believe Vegas oddsmakers would consider predicting this as "off the table"  :)
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: jason on February 09, 2018, 09:18:57 AM
Rich - The numbers provided by the NFHS do not to support your claim:

2017 NFHS Football Play-off Game Statistics Summary
Total (not avg) length of all games reported from kickoff to final horn.
Number of games reported is italicized and in [Brackets]
2007 - 2:20 [567]
2008 - 2:19 [675]
2009 - 2:19 [783]
2010 - 2:15 [737]
2011 - 2:18 [819]
2012 - 2:29 [765]
2013 - 2:19 [682]
2014 - 2:20 [642]
2015 - 2:16 [602]
2016 - 2:17 [415]
2017 - 2:15 [506]
26 States participated in 2017 survey: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii,
Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana; Nebraska, Oklahoma,
Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, West Virgina, Wisconsin, and Wyoming

Those numbers are hard to believe. When someone around here finishes before 9:30, it's uncommon enough that the word spreads. The crew that gets that clean game lets everyone else know about it.

With the proliferation of spread offenses, it's rare to get done with a game before at least 9:30.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: ncwingman on February 09, 2018, 09:39:45 AM
Where I am, Friday night games generally start at 7:30. Reaction to game length falls into three categories:

1) Off the field by 10. Pretty standard. 2:30 game time.

2) In the car driving home by 10. Very short. Game Time was pushing 2:00. Not common, but it happens. Usually all running teams or blowouts with running clocks.

3) Getting off the field 10:30 or later, very long game. 3:00+. Very unusual and worth complaining about to every other crew you work with for the rest of the year -- which offers confirmation bias about all these really long games.

Overall, I don't feel that a significant percentage of games push 3:00 to the extent that we need rule changes to fix it. Most of the time it's a combination of a ton of fouls AND the crew lollygagging a bit in the enforcement of the penalties. We as officials could probably speed up our dead ball mechanics to shorten total game time before we worry about making rule changes.

Oregonian Flea Flicker

I have to say that I have no idea what this play is, until you explain it and it will be really obvious.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 09, 2018, 11:13:11 AM
There was once a rumor of a creative coach living in our Great Northwest. He was mulling the potential play.....

(1) He would send his twin receivers, Zeke and Zeb toward the end zone;
(2) Zeke would run beyond the end line, Zeb would pull up in the end zone;
(3) Lefty, the QB, would throw the ball over Zeb's head;
(4) Zeke would leap from OOB and bat the ball back to Zeb =
 ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (5-man crew)

A member of Refstripes learned from confidential street sources of said play. The addition of 9-6-2b turned the results into =
 ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag (5-man crew)

One can read the drama of this play in 9.6.2B , pg 85 (2013 casebook)

Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bossman72 on February 09, 2018, 11:22:20 AM
Penalty enforcement efficiency and not wasting time between try and kickoff can shave 10-15 min off of your game time.  Good RFP pace by R helps too.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: KWH on February 09, 2018, 11:43:26 AM
Penalty enforcement efficiency and not wasting time between try and kickoff can shave 10-15 min off of your game time.  Good RFP pace by R helps too.


And, add to that, blowing the RFP within Three to Five Seconds of the Umpire spotting the ball***.  This crap of waiting for the chains, or the down box, or the Quarterback, or the Prom Queens Step-Mom to pick her seat are old school. Some will say, "Oh you have to wait for the down box!" No, Actually you don't! In the one in a million shot that the ball is snapped before the down box gets there, the H simply drops his bean bag where the box is to set up. Been doing it that way for many years and have yet to have the H drop his bean bag.  I do strongly suggest White hats make sure all other officials are ready before the Ready for play.
The big push to add the 40 second clock is simply due to all the lolly gag-gin' that many High School R's do. Restated there is nothing wrong with the current 25 second clock, if R's would get on the bandwagon!

Ralph and I have had many a discussion on the 40 second clock! Together, after many late hours of study,  we garnered the following conclusion:   :puke: 

*** 2006 and 2017 NFHS FOOTBALL Officials Manual, Page 18, Section I Referee-A-4
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 09, 2018, 02:33:37 PM
The big push to add the 40 second clock is simply due to all the lolly gag-gin' that many High School R's do. Restated there is nothing wrong with the current 25 second clock, if R's would get on the bandwagon!

Ralph and I have had many a discussion on the 40 second clock! Together, after many late hours of study,  we garnered the following conclusion:   :puke: 

*** 2006 and 2017 NFHS FOOTBALL Officials Manual, Page 18, Section I Referee-A-4

Agreed in full.

I think we've made some progress in Georgia on this. Been a point of emphasis in training for the last few years. Still have some guys that are slow because they've been slow since forever, but the message has largely gotten across.

The 40 second clock just doesn't work for the high school game. Too many variables, many of which Ralph went into earlier this week. The 25 second play is better suited for our game, the 40 second play clock is better suited for the NFL and NCAA. Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bossman72 on February 09, 2018, 03:42:56 PM

And, add to that, blowing the RFP within Three to Five Seconds of the Umpire spotting the ball***.  This crap of waiting for the chains, or the down box, or the Quarterback, or the Prom Queens Step-Mom to pick here seat are old school. Some will say, "Oh you have to wait for the down box!" No, Actually you don't! In the one in a million shot that the ball is snapped before the down box gets there, the H simply drops his bean bag where the box is to set up. Been doing it that way for many years and have yet to have the H drop his bean bag.  I do strongly suggest White hats make sure all other officials are ready before the Ready for play.
The big push to add the 40 second clock is simply due to all the lolly gag-gin' that many High School R's do. Restated there is nothing wrong with the current 25 second clock, if R's would get on the bandwagon!

Ralph and I have had many a discussion on the 40 second clock! Together, after many late hours of study,  we garnered the following conclusion:   :puke: 

*** 2006 and 2017 NFHS FOOTBALL Officials Manual, Page 18, Section I Referee-A-4

While we're on the subject, I'd like to see the NFHS manual let us use prelim signals on the way in to the referee.  This will also help us with efficiency in penalty enforcement.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Magician on February 09, 2018, 04:40:23 PM
Agreed in full.

I think we've made some progress in Georgia on this. Been a point of emphasis in training for the last few years. Still have some guys that are slow because they've been slow since forever, but the message has largely gotten across.

The 40 second clock just doesn't work for the high school game. Too many variables, many of which Ralph went into earlier this week. The 25 second play is better suited for our game, the 40 second play clock is better suited for the NFL and NCAA. Nothing wrong with that.

Except the 3 states who have been experimenting with it the past 2 years have glowing things to say about it. The coaches loves the consistency and now hate when they have to travel to other states and play under the 25-second clock rules. It works very well. I understand the arguments some have that the current process isn't broken. But once you use the 40-second clock you will realize it is better.

The experiment states represented schools with and without play clocks so both have been addressed. You don't need to add visible play clocks if you don't have them.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Magician on February 09, 2018, 04:52:38 PM
Those numbers are hard to believe. When someone around here finishes before 9:30, it's uncommon enough that the word spreads. The crew that gets that clean game lets everyone else know about it.

With the proliferation of spread offenses, it's rare to get done with a game before at least 9:30.

Our average game time was 2:20-2:25. Half our games were 2:00-2:15. We had a 2:40 and a 2:48 so our average ended up being 2:21. This has been our range for the past few years that we tracked it. I don't believe the 40-second play clock impacted that significantly although the IHSAA has data showing the extremes of the range was tightened.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Curious on February 11, 2018, 01:20:23 PM
Here in Michigan, we are officially "experimenting" with the 40 second clock (albeit with no actual field clock).  Sounds simple enough; but as pointed out earlier, there are other "complicating issues" which, INHO can play havoc at the HS level. So here are some questions I have.  How have these impacted (or not) games where the 40 second clock is being used?

 With the play clock running, and there is:
1.   a late substitution by A/K, is B/R being given an opportunity to “match up”; and,
2.   if so, should B/R be penalized if they are slow substituting (in or out); or
3.   if so, and if A’s late substitution(s) is/are the reason(s) for the play clock to expire, should A/K be penalized (for 1-3, see NCAA 3-5-2e)
4.   if so, who will be responsible for making A/K hold the snap

Is the 40 second clock being used during sub-varsity contests?

Does the play clock continue to run (while the game clock is stopped by rule) during the setting of chains following a 1st down by A – not caused by B’s foul?

Following an “Administrative Delay”-  which is the only reason the game clock was stopped, should the R blow the whistle signifying the start of the game AND play clocks?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Magician on February 11, 2018, 03:18:42 PM
Here in Michigan, we are officially "experimenting" with the 40 second clock (albeit with no actual field clock).  Sounds simple enough; but as pointed out earlier, there are other "complicating issues" which, INHO can play havoc at the HS level. So here are some questions I have.  How have these impacted (or not) games where the 40 second clock is being used?

 With the play clock running, and there is:
1.   a late substitution by A/K, is B/R being given an opportunity to “match up”; and,
2.   if so, should B/R be penalized if they are slow substituting (in or out); or
3.   if so, and if A’s late substitution(s) is/are the reason(s) for the play clock to expire, should A/K be penalized (for 1-3, see NCAA 3-5-2e)
4.   if so, who will be responsible for making A/K hold the snap

Is the 40 second clock being used during sub-varsity contests?

Does the play clock continue to run (while the game clock is stopped by rule) during the setting of chains following a 1st down by A – not caused by B’s foul?

Following an “Administrative Delay”-  which is the only reason the game clock was stopped, should the R blow the whistle signifying the start of the game AND play clocks?


The substitution question applies whether you are using a 40/25 clock or a regular 25-second clock. What about the 40/25 clock do you think makes this different? Under current HS rules there is no allowance for matching up. Yes the play clock starts and runs while the chains are moving. Why wouldn't it? It doesn't take that long for the chains to move even if they are sow. If you are going to start both the game and play clock after an administrative delay (i.e. penalty enforcement, injury time out), then you would definitely blow your whistle. With the 40-second clock, when you start the game clock after a first down you usually only wind the game clock with no whistle. But there is nothing with using a quick whistle in that case. I know we've gone back and forth on that in NCAA, and I'm not sure there is still a consistent answer today.

How was your experience with the 40-second clock last year? Was it the first year of your experiment?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 12, 2018, 08:27:24 AM
Penalty enforcement efficiency and not wasting time between try and kickoff can shave 10-15 min off of your game time.  Good RFP pace by R helps too.
Fully agreed....
 (1) If the penalty choice is obvious, just move on. There is no need for a long winded discussion.
 (2) I timed dead ball time back in 1997 after big complaint on new snap after COP rule. Found that average of 4:30 between TD and ensuing KO. A lot of wasted time spent that could be shaved.
 (3) A POE in the Officials Manual will stress developing good RFP pace. I will stress to our guys that applying the POE is much better than having to deal with adjusting to the 40 second clock.

In Maine, Friday night lights begin at 7:00 and always end by 9:00-9:30.

IMHO, larger scores + more passing = longer games

I also do baseball. Games may last from 1:30 - 3:00 hours. A base umpire in April usually gets much colder than a back judge in November.

Time for some clam-broth coca.    eAt&
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: scrounge on February 12, 2018, 02:01:11 PM
Why can't the 40/25 clock be an option by state association adoption? It's not unprecedented to have different timing rules in different states - plenty of states in basketball use a shot clock or use halves vs. quarters. Why not just allow it for those who wish it? If it doesn't work for Maine, no need to force it. If Indiana really wants it, let them have it. I'm sure the small % of officials near border areas who work in multiple states will be able to adjust - they already likely deal with different mechanics already, as many states modify/replace the standard ones.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: KWH on February 12, 2018, 02:13:37 PM
...Overall, I don't feel that a significant percentage of games push 3:00 to the extent that we need rule changes to fix it. Most of the time it's a combination of a ton of fouls AND the crew lollygagging a bit in the enforcement of the penalties. We as officials could probably speed up our dead ball mechanics to shorten total game time before we worry about making rule changes...

+1
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Curious on February 12, 2018, 03:04:07 PM
The substitution question applies whether you are using a 40/25 clock or a regular 25-second clock. What about the 40/25 clock do you think makes this different? Under current HS rules there is no allowance for matching up. Yes the play clock starts and runs while the chains are moving. Why wouldn't it? It doesn't take that long for the chains to move even if they are sow. If you are going to start both the game and play clock after an administrative delay (i.e. penalty enforcement, injury time out), then you would definitely blow your whistle. With the 40-second clock, when you start the game clock after a first down you usually only wind the game clock with no whistle. But there is nothing with using a quick whistle in that case. I know we've gone back and forth on that in NCAA, and I'm not sure there is still a consistent answer today.

How was your experience with the 40-second clock last year? Was it the first year of your experiment?

In reverse order: The experiment last year (our first) was VERY limited. required approval (from game to game) by the State and opponents, and was met with skepticism by most schools. NONE of our crew's games used it.  This year, I'm advised that there will be a big push to use it. Personally, I like the idea; but it has raised some questions...

The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).

As for the other mechanics questions, I'm interested to know how crews in areas using the 40 second clock have adapted.  Most of our HS crews are not comprised, in some part, by NCAA officials; so, absent some guidance - at least early in the season - I can see possibilities of some mistakes in proper clock management.       
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Magician on February 12, 2018, 08:17:32 PM
In reverse order: The experiment last year (our first) was VERY limited. required approval (from game to game) by the State and opponents, and was met with skepticism by most schools. NONE of our crew's games used it.  This year, I'm advised that there will be a big push to use it. Personally, I like the idea; but it has raised some questions...

The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).

As for the other mechanics questions, I'm interested to know how crews in areas using the 40 second clock have adapted.  Most of our HS crews are not comprised, in some part, by NCAA officials; so, absent some guidance - at least early in the season - I can see possibilities of some mistakes in proper clock management.       
I know the substitution rules are different since I work both codes. I'm just saying the substitution rule and 40-second clock don't have anything to do with each other. You could have the substitution rule with a 25-second clock too. Why does it matter when the play clock started if there are 15 seconds left on a play clock and the offense subs? I could maybe see an argument if the offense goes no huddle and subs right away as they are going to the line of scrimmage. It's possible the ball could be ready for play a couple seconds sooner with a 40-second play clock, but if that is the case it would affect any possible fouls by holding up the offense. That was my point. I think the substitution rule could easily apply in either play clock situation. I believe they came into the NCAA rule book about the same time, but I've never heard that one caused the other.

As for mechanics changes, here are a couple I can think of:
* Give a dead ball signal by raising your hand over your head with an open palm if the run ends in bounds short of the line to gain. This indicates to the play clock operator to reset the play clock and start it. In our experiment we have to give the dead ball signal even if we stop the clock for a first down or run OOB or signal an incomplete pass. It looks silly but they currently require it.
* There is no ready for play whistle to start the play clock so the ball is considered ready for play when the umpire steps away from the ball. He asks the snapper to give him a second to get clear of the defense. It's very rare for the offense to be that ready the instant the umpire steps away from the ball. Make sure all officials on the crew are ready before stepping away.
* If you are chain crews are very slow they may have to speed up a little. The first year of our experiment the IHSAA was communicating the chain crew needed to run after a first down, but unless it's a very long play they don't need to move any faster than a slow jog.
* We were given the option of having balls for both teams on both sides and asking both teams' ball boys to help with ball rotation. We also brought all changes of possession in from the home side for consistency purposes. We did have some occasional issues with no balls on one side, but we used our radios to communicate and correct the situation quickly. This didn't create any new issues with ball boys. We still had some of the same attention issues, but it wasn't terrible.
* Your pace should otherwise be similar to what you have. If you were a really slow crew you may not like the new faster (to you) pace.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bossman72 on February 12, 2018, 09:08:10 PM
The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).     

I'm with Magician.  I think they're mutually exclusive.  You asked why is it part of the NCAA rule - the substitution rule was created for substitution.  It has nothing to do with the play clock.

In fact, to give you a great example, the 40 sec play clock was adopted in 2008-ish by NCAA.  Here is a copy of the 2005 rule book that used the 25 sec ready for play and also had the iron-cross substitution rule.  So there is an example that they have nothing to do with each other.
https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4479-2005-ncaa-football-rules-and-interpretations.aspx
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 13, 2018, 07:48:55 AM
Why can't the 40/25 clock be an option by state association adoption? It's not unprecedented to have different timing rules in different states - plenty of states in basketball use a shot clock or use halves vs. quarters. Why not just allow it for those who wish it? If it doesn't work for Maine, no need to force it. If Indiana really wants it, let them have it. I'm sure the small % of officials near border areas who work in multiple states will be able to adjust - they already likely deal with different mechanics already, as many states modify/replace the standard ones.
It is now my understanding that for "state's rights" it would have to be incorporated in the proposal base. Examples : 1-1-7, 3-1-1 note, 3-1-2,3-1-3 etc. I had a proposal in to make the 40 sec clock via state adoption  but was explained that protocol would require that to be voted on ONLY IF the basic proposal failed. The basic proposal did fail and the state adoption failed also. Hope that's not too confusing.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 13, 2018, 09:25:50 AM
We need the match-up substitution rule regardless of whether we go to the 40 second play clock or not. It makes more sense with the 40, but it needs to happen.

Here's why: https://youtu.be/P5VIgzalz50

Especially in HS with the wider hash marks, offenses can gain an absolutely HUGE competitive advantage like this. I'm honestly shocked we don't see it more than we do already. With the ball on the offensive team's hash and after practicing this for a week, the offensive team can easily substitute an entire unit on and meet all the requirements of the rule book while the defensive team has to try and do so late and also has to come all the way 2/3 across the field. They have no chance. It's either take a timeout or take an illegal substitution penalty.

In my opinion, the *only* good thing that would come with the 40 second play clock is a substitution match-up rule.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Kalle on February 13, 2018, 09:52:00 AM
We need the match-up substitution rule regardless of whether we go to the 40 second play clock or not. It makes more sense with the 40, but it needs to happen.

Here's why: https://youtu.be/P5VIgzalz50

This is still a legal tactic in NFHS?  pi1eOn

Pretty please implement some kind of a match-up rule, if the NCAA version is not good enough...
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: scrounge on February 13, 2018, 10:09:07 AM
I thought the college substitution rule didn't apply on 4th down anyway, as B is expected to know that kicking teams may be running on?

With HS officials and 5 man crews, I don't think we need nor can reliably expect to administer a substitution matchup rule.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bossman72 on February 13, 2018, 10:40:10 AM
I thought the college substitution rule didn't apply on 4th down anyway, as B is expected to know that kicking teams may be running on?

With HS officials and 5 man crews, I don't think we need nor can reliably expect to administer a substitution matchup rule.

It doesn't apply on a mayday field goal with time running out.  It does apply to normal 4th down situations.

5 man crew should have nothing to do with ability to administer.  R, U, H, and L do the majority of the work for subs in a 7/8 man crew.  Texas and Europe has this rule and mainly work 5 man...
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: scrounge on February 13, 2018, 10:46:25 AM
It doesn't apply on a mayday field goal with time running out.  It does apply to normal 4th down situations.

5 man crew should have nothing to do with ability to administer.  R, U, H, and L do the majority of the work for subs in a 7/8 man crew.  Texas and Europe has this rule and mainly work 5 man...

Ok, thanks....I still don't think it's a big enough issue to worry about, but not opposed to it.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: refjeff on February 14, 2018, 08:27:15 AM
They have no chance. It's either take a timeout or take an illegal substitution penalty.
  Their third choice is to coach their kids on how to play defense, or in this case defend a punt, with the eleven they have on the field.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 14, 2018, 09:25:47 AM
  Their third choice is to coach their kids on how to play defense, or in this case defend a punt, with the eleven they have on the field.

I suppose. But that leaves the fact that the offensive team gets to sub on their special personnel while the defensive team can not. It's a pretty clear hole in our rules that can easily be fixed. Why leave one team at a disadvantage simply because we're too lazy to fix our rule book?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 14, 2018, 12:49:26 PM
I suppose. But that leaves the fact that the offensive team gets to sub on their special personnel while the defensive team can not. It's a pretty clear hole in our rules that can easily be fixed. Why leave one team at a disadvantage simply because we're too lazy to fix our rule book?

A BASIC objective of the game of football, is creating advantages and being prepared to avoid disadvantages, that the rules consider acceptable.  Illegal/unearned/excessive advantages are illegal, and should, if necessary, require intervention to prohibit them. "Kicking situations" usually are somewhat predictable, evolving from common unfolding game conditions that Coaches should be prepared to deal with, in whatever manner best suited for their available resources.

Even in surprise situations, responding to a "kicking situation" falls well within the standards of basic preparation.

It is the BASIC objective of Offenses to seek legal advantage over opponents, and the responsibility of Defenses to be prepared to neutralize legal disadvantages they are confronted with.   
 
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 14, 2018, 01:41:12 PM
A BASIC objective of the game of football, is creating advantages and being prepared to avoid disadvantages, that the rules consider acceptable.  Illegal/unearned/excessive advantages are illegal, and should, if necessary, require intervention to prohibit them. "Kicking situations" usually are somewhat predictable, evolving from common unfolding game conditions that Coaches should be prepared to deal with, in whatever manner best suited for their available resources.

Even in surprise situations, responding to a "kicking situation" falls well within the standards of basic preparation.

It is the BASIC objective of Offenses to seek legal advantage over opponents, and the responsibility of Defenses to be prepared to neutralize legal disadvantages they are confronted with.

I'm not swayed.

Every other level of football has, correctly, decided that allowing the offensive team to quickly substitute personnel without allowing adequate time for the defensive team to match up creates an unfair advantage. And for the college game, a very real factor in that decision was the safety of the athletes - if defensive players are forced to remain on the field because their coaches can not substitute them off the field, they are at a higher risk of injury. That should be a primary concern here in the high school game as well.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 14, 2018, 02:11:13 PM
I'm not swayed.

 if defensive players are forced to remain on the field because their coaches can not substitute them off the field, they are at a higher risk of injury. That should be a primary concern here in the high school game as well.

It seems a PRIMARY responsibility of any Coach, would be to be aware when ANY player might be, "at a higher risk of injury" due to fatigue, or the length of time they've been playing REGARDLESS of what type play might be anticipated, and under normal conditions that have adequate time to substitute a player (if properly prepared to do so).

There are unique physical, tactical and objective differences between "Football" played at different levels (Interscholastic, Collegiate, Professional) and Kick formation Match-Up" is high on that list.  Whats "good for the goose" doesn't necessarily apply to the "gander".
Title: Rule changes are here
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 14, 2018, 07:37:29 PM
It seems a PRIMARY responsibility of any Coach, would be to be aware when ANY player might be, "at a higher risk of injury" due to fatigue, or the length of time they've been playing REGARDLESS of what type play might be anticipated, and under normal conditions that have adequate time to substitute a player (if properly prepared to do so).

There are unique physical, tactical and objective differences between "Football" played at different levels (Interscholastic, Collegiate, Professional) and Kick formation Match-Up" is high on that list.  Whats "good for the goose" doesn't necessarily apply to the "gander".
It seems counterproductive (at least here in the south) to promote a style of play that leads to fatigue at the high school level. The heat/humidity timeout is welcome to all parties on the field, especially during early games. IMHO, the 40 sec clock adds to the danger of heat related injuries due to the limited opportunities to substitute.


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Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Magician on February 14, 2018, 09:38:30 PM
It seems counterproductive (at least here in the south) to promote a style of play that leads to fatigue at the high school level. The heat/humidity timeout is welcome to all parties on the field, especially during early games. IMHO, the 40 sec clock adds to the danger of heat related injuries due to the limited opportunities to substitute.


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The 40-second clock very rarely speeds up how quickly the team snaps the ball. Assuming most dead ball to ready with a 25-second clock is about 15 seconds the pace is about the same. Even if the ball is ready prior to 25 seconds on the play clock, it is very rarely snapped before 25 seconds. You'll run into a team occasionally that will snap between 25-30, but the defense has time to sub then as well.

If this ever does pass I guarantee you all the talk in the offseason will be about how much faster teams will be able to. Having gone through this twice now (first in NCAA and now as an experimental state), I can tell you that's where most of the conversation is until the games are played. Then everyone goes as fast as they've always gone. The much bigger impact is dead ball to DOG and that impact is it's the same on every play rather than an 8-10 second variation play to play.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bama_stripes on February 15, 2018, 06:11:46 AM
Al:  One-platoon football is dead & it ain't coming back.  Allowing for defensive matchups  would maintain the balance between offense and defense that NFHS values so dearly.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 15, 2018, 09:07:59 AM
Al:  One-platoon football is dead & it ain't coming back.  Allowing for defensive matchups  would maintain the balance between offense and defense that NFHS values so dearly.

I'm not looking for "one-platoon" football, any more that I'm looking for unnecessary rule adjustments to accommodate Coaches who refuse to prepare for INEVITABLE REPETITIONS, common to the game. 

Of course, most everything is local, and no two football games have EVER been exactly alike, but deciding whether to kick, after 3rd down, is a reasonably consistent decision Coaches have to make during, at least a majority, of Interscholastic Football games, and a majority of Coaches are most often prepared to do so, on a regular basis WITHOUT calling for a "team meeting" to alert (usually) the same substitutes to repeat their standard assignment.

The value of pre-planning and preparation extends to both sides of the ball. Specific actions, usually call for specific reactions.

Both the Offense and Defense ALREADY have exactly the same opportunities to plan, and be prepared for, multiple opportunities/challenges that may be determined by previous game action.

Some (actually, quite a few) Coaches have their selected "Special Teams" substitutes standing by, on alert, prepared (if not anxious) to enter the game upon receipt of brief, additional and specific instruction.
Title: Rule changes are here
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 15, 2018, 12:19:32 PM
Easy solution. Make a rule prohibiting ANY substitutions after :20 on the play clock. If a coach takes too long deciding to punt, let the QB pint and the safety can receive it.


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Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: bama_stripes on February 16, 2018, 06:28:05 AM

Some (actually, quite a few) Coaches have their selected "Special Teams" substitutes standing by, on alert, prepared (if not anxious) to enter the game upon receipt of brief, additional and specific instruction.

I know very few (if any) defensive coaches who send out their punt return team when the offense lines up to run a play on 4th down, as in the OP's video.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: ncwingman on February 16, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
Maybe I'm in a weird area, but most high schools around me don't have enough players to really have dedicated punt/punt coverage teams. They might have a special returner (maybe a WR/PR, so he's not on defense), but they don't make wholesale changes like the video. I think around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem or "Hey, they do that on Saturday/Sunday, so we should do it too!"

However, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that there is nothing in the rule book that can prevent the play shown in the video. The team lined up, *was set* and then did a full scale substitution with the intent of deceiving the defense. That should be a violation of 9-6-4d for illegal participation. That being said, since the defense then tried to substitute and failed to have everybody on/off in time, they would have also been guilty of an illegal substitution foul and it would be a double foul and the down replayed. (Of course, the defense calls timeout preventing either foul from occurring)

If the issue was that the offense just looked lost in the huddle until <10 seconds on the play clock and then tried to pull this, then I agree that there's nothing that could be done from our perspective in the current rule book.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: SouthGARef on February 16, 2018, 09:39:40 AM
Maybe I'm in a weird area, but most high schools around me don't have enough players to really have dedicated punt/punt coverage teams. They might have a special returner (maybe a WR/PR, so he's not on defense), but they don't make wholesale changes like the video. I think around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem or "Hey, they do that on Saturday/Sunday, so we should do it too!"

However, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that there is nothing in the rule book that can prevent the play shown in the video. The team lined up, *was set* and then did a full scale substitution with the intent of deceiving the defense. That should be a violation of 9-6-4d for illegal participation. That being said, since the defense then tried to substitute and failed to have everybody on/off in time, they would have also been guilty of an illegal substitution foul and it would be a double foul and the down replayed. (Of course, the defense calls timeout preventing either foul from occurring)

If the issue was that the offense just looked lost in the huddle until <10 seconds on the play clock and then tried to pull this, then I agree that there's nothing that could be done from our perspective in the current rule book.

I don't know if 9-4-6d was ever intended for this type of action or has ever been interpreted to penalize this type of action. 9-4-6d has historically been used to penalize teams that use the substitution process to deceive opponents by hiding a player near the sideline or things like that.

I also wouldn't say what Team A does here is "deception". They're not deceiving the opponents. It's clear to everyone that they're substituting their full punt unit onto the field. They just do it in such a manner that leaves Team B little/no chance to match up. I don't think I can support a 9-4-6d interpretation here.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: AlUpstateNY on February 16, 2018, 09:47:52 AM
I wouldn't think there is anything inherently illegal about substituting your entire team, at any point in a game, as long as you can get everyone set and comply with NFHS 3-6-2a.  Considering a violation of 9-6-4d, seems like a bit of a stretch without additional, very convincing, behavior.

Your observation, "around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem" seems valid.     
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 16, 2018, 09:52:49 AM
Isn't this just an offshoot of the no-huddle offense with the intent of catching the defense flat-footed. IMHO, 9-4-6d is intended to prevent a team from sneaking a player in or out of the game to confuse the opponents as to who's in/out.
Title: Rule changes are here
Post by: CalhounLJ on February 16, 2018, 11:06:34 AM
Agree with all responses. I’m not in favor of using the deception argument every time we run into a difficult situation


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Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: prab on February 20, 2018, 12:28:43 PM
Was changing the definition of the inbounds/out-of-bounds status of an airborne player even considered for possible 2018 rule change?
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: refjeff on February 20, 2018, 07:09:32 PM
Maybe I'm in a weird area, but most high schools around me don't have enough players to really have dedicated punt/punt coverage teams. They might have a special returner (maybe a WR/PR, so he's not on defense), but they don't make wholesale changes like the video. I think around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem or "Hey, they do that on Saturday/Sunday, so we should do it too!"

Exactly.
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: NCVAReferee on February 21, 2018, 05:54:12 AM
1-5-4, 1-5-5, 3-5-10e (NEW) 3-6-2, 9-9: Improperly equipped player shall be replaced for at least one down.

What will this mean for players with pads hanging out of jerseys or jerseys untucked?  In NC the interpretation has been that this constitutes illegal equipment. 

Also, the literal reading of this change implies that if equipment becomes illegal during the down (ie. pads pop out), then they would need to be replaced for a down?

Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: NCVAReferee on February 21, 2018, 05:56:17 AM
Let me clarify, I meant to say this constitutes improperly wearing required equipment.  With that reading it would seem this rule change would not be applicable to the scenario I presented now that I think about it, but what do you think? 
Title: Re: Rule changes are here
Post by: Ralph Damren on February 21, 2018, 07:00:25 AM
With our new rule we have 3 possibilities.....

(1) Big ole' Bubba waddles up to the line with his chin strap dangling = officials' time out - Bubba must leave for 1 play.

(2) Big ole' Bubba waddles up to line without a tail-pad = officials' time out -Bubba must leave for one play.

(3) Big ole' Bubba waddles up to the line with a razor blade taped to his belt buckle = officials' time out, head coach hit with  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag (5-man crew) for USC.

Unlike other levels, a team can't burn a timeout to get Bubba back in the game. Sorta' like a player losing his helmet. Case plays will help clarify.