Shift / Motion - legal or not?

[FLAHL]

Prior to the snap, RB A22 moves laterally from one side of the QB to the other side. All other players are set.  A22 goes into a 3 point stance and is not set for one second before the snap.

Is this a foul because he did not complete his shift and remain set for one second?
Or is it ok because he was in motion and was not moving forward?

“ART. 6 . . . After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.

ART. 7 . . . Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line”

[Stinterp]

As long as A22 was set for 1 second with all the other players before he started in motion, it is legal.  If he was never set for 1 second, then illegal shift at the snap.

[Brian26]

Doesn't the motion of him going into a 3 point stance constitute motion towards his opponents goal line?
If so it should be illegal shift if he was set 1 second before going into motion or illegal motion if he was not set for 1 second.

[CalhounLJ]

I think the question FLAHL is trying to get at is if A is considered to still be in motion because even though he has stopped to go into a set position he hasn’t stopped long enough to fulfill the shift requirement. My opinion is no.
A ceased to be a player in motion when he stopped and went into a 3 point stance. Since he wasn’t stopped for at least 1 second, I have a flag for illegal shift at the snap


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[CalhounLJ]

As long as A22 was set for 1 second with all the other players before he started in motion, it is legal.  If he was never set for 1 second, then illegal shift at the snap.

All 11 players have to be stationary at the snap, with the exception of 1 who may be legally in motion at the snap. It doesn’t matter how many or how many times a player shifts before the snap, they all have to have been still for at least one second immediately before the snap. With the exception of the one who may be in motion.


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[FLAHL]

I think the question FLAHL is trying to get at is if A is considered to still be in motion because even though he has stopped to go into a set position he hasn’t stopped long enough to fulfill the shift requirement.

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Thanks Calhoun, that’s exactly what I’m getting at.  Article 6 in the OP seems to suggest this is a foul. Article 7 seems to suggest it’s ok.  And the definition of a Shift indicates that it’s not a shift until the 1 second duration has been met. So if he hasn’t been set, is he still in motion?  And if he’s not set AND not in motion, then what is he?

[CalhounLJ]

He’s in trouble.


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[Stinterp]

IMO, if we consider A22 moving forward by going into a 3 point stance and flag that,  it's going to be a long night.  The rule states only 1 player MAY be in motion, he doesn't have to be moving side to side, as long as he is not moving forward, he is legal.  Again, all 11 players have to be set for one second at some point before the snap, but one may be in motion. I'm interpreting that one man in motion can basically move anywhere he wants as long as its not forward. I'm not picking this booger.

[CalhounLJ]

i agree completely. I would add that once the player assumed a three point stance he ceased to be in motion, and has to remain motionless for at least one second before the snap.

[VA Official]

Doesn't the motion of him going into a 3 point stance constitute motion towards his opponents goal line?
If so it should be illegal shift if he was set 1 second before going into motion or illegal motion if he was not set for 1 second.

You've got that a little backwards. If he was set for 1 second before going in motion with all of his teammates also set, and he is moving towards his opponent's end line at the snap, that's illegal motion. If he was never set for 1 second, that's an illegal shift.

If he stops moving his feet and he simply leans down into a 3-point stance, that shouldn't be interpreted as moving forward.

i agree completely. I would add that once the player assumed a three point stance he ceased to be in motion, and has to remain motionless for at least one second before the snap.

Calhoun, why do you think he needs to be set for one second while he's still legally in motion when going into a set position?

[OHref71]

What Calhoun is saying is if he made it to a 3 point stance and was not there for a second before the ball was snapped then it is a foul which it is.  A22 can remain in motion and it would be fine but if he stops and sets he must be set for 1 second.

[Stinterp]

OHref, I disagree, if he was set for one second when he first came to the line, along with his other 10 teammates, he does not have to re-set for a second before the snap (as long as no other teammates have moved).  He MAY be in motion or stopped, as long as he is not in forward motion he is legal.

[VA Official]

What Calhoun is saying is if he made it to a 3 point stance and was not there for a second before the ball was snapped then it is a foul which it is.  A22 can remain in motion and it would be fine but if he stops and sets he must be set for 1 second.

That's not my understanding of the motion rule. Once a player is legally in motion (meaning he has established a set position for 1 second simultaneous with all other A players and then he goes in motion), the only thing he can't do is move toward his opponent's goal line at the snap (besides the 5 yard rule if he's not a back when starting his motion). He can cartwheel, somersault, or cha-cha slide.

Can you point me to your rule reference for the resetting for 1 second before the snap while he's legally in motion?

Edit: Agree with Stinterp 100%.

[OHref71]

read case 7.2.6 situation b  Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion.

[VA Official]

read case 7.2.6 situation b  Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion.

That deals with a shift of 2 or more players. This play we are discussing is 1 player in motion. 2 players is a shift and they must reset for 1 second, you are correct. But 1 player in motion doesn’t have to.

[OHref71]

The play does but the wording of the explanation says following a huddle or shift it does not say a huddle or shift of 2 or more players.

[OHref71]

A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

sounds like he shifted based on 2-39 definition and therefore must reset.  I agree if he stayed in motion we are fine but he  moved to a new position and set in 3 point stance this is a shift and he must be reset for 1 second.

[CalhounLJ]

read case 7.2.6 situation b  Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion.

For those who asked, this is the basis of my position. When A stopped his motion and went into a 3 point stance, his “motion” became a shift. After that shift he must remain motionless for 1 second before the snap.


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[Stinterp]

All 11 players have to be set for 1 second at any time after the RFP until the snap, doesn't matter when they are all set.
I think we are beating this dead horse, but what if the man in motion stops going in motion and just jogs in place or just stops and does nothing (we see this all the time), then the snap.  I have nothing as long as he is not moving forward.
What is the difference if he is going down in a stance, this is not a shift it is legal motion.

[CalhounLJ]

The reason you see a player in motion jogging in place is because of this very rule. He has been coached to do so so that the snap won't catch him between the stop in his shift and the 1 second requirement... so he remains in motion by jogging in place

Think about it like this: All A players break the huddle, get into formation and come set, fulfilling the requirement. Then the TE on the left side shifts over to the right side, and just as he is putting his hand down on the ground, the snapper snaps the ball. Would you call that an illegal shift?

[brettjr2005]

All 11 players have to be set for 1 second at any time after the RFP until the snap, doesn't matter when they are all set.
I think we are beating this dead horse, but what if the man in motion stops going in motion and just jogs in place or just stops and does nothing (we see this all the time), then the snap.  I have nothing as long as he is not moving forward.
What is the difference if he is going down in a stance, this is not a shift it is legal motion.

As long as that one man is taking short, choppy steps or jogging in place then he's still satisfying Art. 7 because his movement, however slight, still constitutes motion.  Once he stops moving it is now classified as a shift and he must remain set for one second before the snap.  Calhoun covered that part well.

As to your final sentence, Case Book Situation 2.39 (Illegal Shifts) clearly states that changes in stance, such as going into a three point stance from a standing position, constitute a shift. 

[Brian26]

IMO, if we consider A22 moving forward by going into a 3 point stance and flag that,  it's going to be a long night.  The rule states only 1 player MAY be in motion, he doesn't have to be moving side to side, as long as he is not moving forward, he is legal.  Again, all 11 players have to be set for one second at some point before the snap, but one may be in motion. I'm interpreting that one man in motion can basically move anywhere he wants as long as its not forward. I'm not picking this booger.

I guess I stated that wrong. If he was originally set for one second then went into motion and as he turned towards opponents goal line  to get into a 3 point stance and ball was snapped i would have illegal motion. If he gets into the 3 point stance before ball is snapped but doesn't stay motionless for one second then I would have illegal shift. It has to be a penalty on one or the other in my book. Calling should not make for a long night, it should make the QB be a little more aware of letting all his player get into legal position at the snap.

Although its a bit different and with the QB case play 7.2.7 is very similar in explanation of this.

[VA Official]

Think about it like this: All A players break the huddle, get into formation and come set, fulfilling the requirement. Then the TE on the left side shifts over to the right side, and just as he is putting his hand down on the ground, the snapper snaps the ball. Would you call that an illegal shift?

In this scenario it’s clearly established as illegal motion in the rules. A lineman in motion must be 5 yards back at the snap if he hasn’t stopped for 1 second in the backfield to establish himself as a back. This is explicit in the rules book so I agree this is a foul for illegal motion.

The other scenario, with a back in legal motion going into a set position, is not clearly defined either by a rule or a case play. I personally can’t call a foul for something that is so deep in the “gray” that there are 2 sides that both have valid points if it’s legal or a foul.

[CalhounLJ]

Maybe this will help. Page 10 of the 2017 Redding Study Guide, under the Heading, SHIFTS:
"If a player on the offensive team moves to a new position after the ready and before the snap, it is a shift. There might be several shifts between the ready and the snap (breaking the huddle is a shift), but no matter how many there are, after the last shift all members of the offensive team must stop and remain still for at least one second. After this one-second pause, the ball may be snapped, or one player may go legally in motion and still be moving away from or parallel to his scrimmage line when the ball is snapped. The point is the shift must be separated from the rest of the action by the one-second pause. Otherwise it is an illegal shift (live ball foul) simultaneous with the snap."

[CalhounLJ]

There is also this example on page 10:

EXAMPLE 3-7:
Team A has been set for one second when back A34, without committing a false start (a) goes in legal motion, or (b) steps forward to a new position on the line and takes a three-point stance. In either case, he stops, but before one second elapses, the ball is snapped.
RULING:
in (a), the snap is considered to have taken place while A34 is in legal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift; A34 had to be stationary for a full second before the snap because his motion was forward.