Defensive Holding on Pass Receiver

[animalspooker]

I had a coach argue with me last night that a defensive player can push and shove an offensive receiver all he wants until a pass is thrown, without penalty.  I informed him otherwise, but he asked me to research this and show him in the book.  Of course he said it in a tone that basically said, "you don't know what you're talking about!"  Now, I know where it says that offensive pass interference starts at the snap and defensive pass interference starts at the pass, but I cannot find anything that mentions knocking a receiver off of his route or anything like that.  Can you guys help me?

Everything I'm reading says they can hit them all they want up until the pass is thrown???

[TxBJ]

For the most part the coach is right. He can't hold but he can "chuck" the receiver all the way downfield until the receiver gets on the same yard line as him or the ball is thrown.

[TxBJ]

Note that I am referring to NCAA and Texas high school rules.

[AlUpstateNY]

He is correct PROVIDED;  The receiver is between the defender and the runner (keep in mind the player with the ball is a runner, until he actually passes the ball), and until the pass is thrown, the "potential" receiver is actually a "potential" blocking threat to the defender, who has a right to defend himself against the blocker.

However, once that offensive player moves AWAY from the defender, or moves PAST the defender, he is no longer a threat, and impeding his progress would then be Defensive Holding.

[animalspooker]

So, lets say the receiver is lined up against the sideline and runs a pattern straight down the sideline?  Is he ever a potential blocker?  And you both mentioned the defender can't hit him after he passes the defender...where is this in the book???

[Johnponz]

Generally, the coach is correct look at AR 7.3.8 (III)

[AlUpstateNY]

So, lets say the receiver is lined up against the sideline and runs a pattern straight down the sideline?  Is he ever a potential blocker?  And you both mentioned the defender can't hit him after he passes the defender...where is this in the book???

you might look at NFHS 9-2-3-d. You might find additional clarification in the Ruling under Case Book 9.2.3 Situation A.

[yarnnelg]

I had one problem coach that almost started a riot the week before. I was assigned his sideline the following week in an effort to keep him in check. My normal routine pregame, then he informs me he will be at our meeting on Monday night on his grievance filing regarding the previous game. Great ball game two incidences with the coach, almost ejected his Assistant Coach. But a lengthy conversation cleared the air. "Why did you throw that flag?" "Hang on coach, you have an injured player and I have a ball to spot for the Umpire." came back and turned my back to him, which is how I explained I would handle things while I was working the field. "So, regarding the block in the back call, pure and simple, poor coaching." "What?" "You spent all week working on that play, hammering the absolute need for that receiver to make that block, never taught him how to handle the unexpected. Crack back blocks can be good blocks but they have to be legal. Look at the film, tackle fires out, hits defensive end turns defensive end to the inside, tackle slides off and takes out the outside linebacker, your end plows right into the numbers on the back of the jersey. Do you know what a pick in basketball is?" "Yeah I do" "Run up to the defensive end stop and let him turn into the receiver. That man can be 6'-10" and 400 labs, he cannot turn blindside and get to the outside to make the tackle if the receiver uses his head, bad coaching, watch the film." Monday Night, Coach arrives, sees me, shakes hands, "You were absolutely right on the call." I replied, " Thanks Coach, hope my suggestion helps the player in the future, by the way, I am on the Board and will be listening to the grievance, I may comment but will not vote." Based on film we had, the coach was just throwing a fit and had no reason to go out of control on the call during the previous week. I had a long talk with him afterward. Got a lot of calls from that coach during the rest of the season.

[TxSkyBolt]

That's not a conversation, that's a speech. :-). Did you really go into all that?


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[bkdow]

All this was done between snaps?  I can only spot the ball, verify the down, remember the substitutes, count defense, check the clock, position my receivers, and watch for FST/DOF before the snap.  Very impressive!

 

[animalspooker]

you might look at NFHS 9-2-3-d. You might find additional clarification in the Ruling under Case Book 9.2.3 Situation A.

I've been looking for this for two days.  I found it last night.  You already had it on here AIU.  Anyway, a defender cannot hit or disrupt a receiver running his pattern.  The coach was incorrect and the fact that he told me I was wrong and needed to reread my rule book at least five times on the way to the locker room only makes my finding this rule even sweeter.  Hopefully the coach will make some changes.

[AlUpstateNY]

I've been looking for this for two days.  I found it last night.  You already had it on here AIU.  Anyway, a defender cannot hit or disrupt a receiver running his pattern.  The coach was incorrect and the fact that he told me I was wrong and needed to reread my rule book at least five times on the way to the locker room only makes my finding this rule even sweeter.  Hopefully the coach will make some changes.

Not sure I understand your response, what part of, "A defender may legally contact an eligible receiver  before the pass is in flight beyond the NZ PROVIDED THE  RECEIVER IS A POTENTIAL BLOCKER")( 9.2.3.Sit A)

So actually, when that receiver is a POTENTIAL BLOCKER (Between the defender and the runner) the defender can initiate legal contact with that eligible receiver until a pass is actually thrown. Of course it's YOUR JUDGMENT whether the contact is legal, and whether the defender poses a blocking threat, but it's well to remember it's NOT A PASS until it's THROWN.

[HLinNC]

Everything I'm reading says they can hit them all they want up until the pass is thrown???

So doesn't this indicate your response to the coach was wrong?

Here is the key statement in case play 9.2.3 A- "A1 was moving away from B1 when the contact occurred."

Of course he said it in a tone that basically said, "you don't know what you're talking about!"

  And he might possibly be right.

You might want to re-visit the whole issue again, from the beginning.  My speculation is he was speaking in rather general terms, as non-officials tend to do.  Nothing he said appears to be incorrect, generally speaking.  Your case play cited gives a specific instance that makes the action illegal by rule.  As others have mentioned, once that receiver is no longer a potential blocker, and that can be indicated by him achieving an equal or further yard line to the defender, then the defender needs to lay off.

If you have an opportunity to speak with that coach again in a non-confrontational scenario, you might explain that you have researched the rule and case plays and while he is generally speaking, correct, there are instances where the action would be illegal.  Perhaps then he won't give the impression he feels like you don't know what you are talking about.

[bigjohn]

What a crock! The casebook says that once the receiver is moving away or is not trying to block B he is clearly no longer a potential blocker!
You get a snickers for being the first official that gets it!

BLOCKING – USE OF HANDS
9.2.3 SITUATION A: End A1 sprints from the line and then cuts sharply toward
the middle of the field. A1 makes no attempt to block defensive back B1. B1 pursues
A1 and pushes him from the side using his open hands. Contact is made on
A1’s upper arm before the pass is thrown. A1 was moving away from B1 when
the contact occurred. RULING: Illegal use of hands by B1. A defender may legally
contact an eligible receiver beyond the neutral zone before the pass is in flight.
The contact may be a block or warding off the opponent who is attempting to
block by pushing or pulling him. However, if the receiver is not attempting to
block or has gone past or is moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use
hands in the manner described. In this situation, it is clear that A1 is no longer a
potential blocker on B1. (2-3-5a; 7-5-7)


The foul is Illegal Use of Hands.

[AlUpstateNY]

No matter how hard you keep beating this horse, John, it's going to remain DEAD.  Insisting on parsing words is not going to breath life back into the carcass. Most, if not all, officials as well as most, if not all, defensive players unfortunately lack your clairvoyance that allows you to read minds, so we have to rely on what we actually see.

What we see is a runner, with teammates between that runner and a defensive player as potential blockers for that runner, who the defensive player is legally entitled to engage, until such time when that opponent ceases to be a potential blocker, which is understood to happen when that opponent occupies the same yardline as the defender (and is not engaging the defender) and moves past him, or moves away from the defender without engaging him.

If you should choose to consider the referenced Case Book play with an open mind, you may see it supports that concept.  Like it, or not, it is NOT (nor will ever be) your judgment that will decide whether, and/or when, A1 ceases to be a potential blocker, that judgment is assigned to the covering official.

 

[GAHSUMPIRE]

I had one problem coach that almost started a riot the week before. I was assigned his sideline the following week in an effort to keep him in check. My normal routine pregame, then he informs me he will be at our meeting on Monday night on his grievance filing regarding the previous game. Great ball game two incidences with the coach, almost ejected his Assistant Coach. But a lengthy conversation cleared the air. "Why did you throw that flag?" "Hang on coach, you have an injured player and I have a ball to spot for the Umpire." came back and turned my back to him, which is how I explained I would handle things while I was working the field. "So, regarding the block in the back call, pure and simple, poor coaching." "What?" "You spent all week working on that play, hammering the absolute need for that receiver to make that block, never taught him how to handle the unexpected. Crack back blocks can be good blocks but they have to be legal. Look at the film, tackle fires out, hits defensive end turns defensive end to the inside, tackle slides off and takes out the outside linebacker, your end plows right into the numbers on the back of the jersey. Do you know what a pick in basketball is?" "Yeah I do" "Run up to the defensive end stop and let him turn into the receiver. That man can be 6'-10" and 400 labs, he cannot turn blindside and get to the outside to make the tackle if the receiver uses his head, bad coaching, watch the film." Monday Night, Coach arrives, sees me, shakes hands, "You were absolutely right on the call." I replied, " Thanks Coach, hope my suggestion helps the player in the future, by the way, I am on the Board and will be listening to the grievance, I may comment but will not vote." Based on film we had, the coach was just throwing a fit and had no reason to go out of control on the call during the previous week. I had a long talk with him afterward. Got a lot of calls from that coach during the rest of the season.

Your response to the coach was "pure and simple poor coaching"?

It may actually have been poor coaching, but why say it? Based on the information presented, you have no way of knowing whether the coach instructed the player to do exactly as you said, but the player didn't execute correctly.

I'm glad it seems like there is a happy ending, and I am sure it felt good to tell him that- there have been times I would have liked to have done the same. There are many things on which we are called to pass judgment,  I don't think the quality of a team's coaching, especially without all of the facts,  is one of them.

[bigjohn]

not all Al

https://forum.officiating.com/football/92395-question-about-potential-blocker-hitting-receivers.html

[AlUpstateNY]

John, I can try and explain reality to you as best I can, but only YOU can decide whether to accept what you're being told.

[Ironmanerik]

My interpretation is that if I have a receiver running a pass route, the initial hit that the defender has is legal and I wouldn't flag it.    But once the receiver gets past that defender and it is clear he is not a blocker and is trying to gain separation and the defender contacts him I would have illegal use of hands. 


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