Author Topic: Scrimmage Kick questions  (Read 5346 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Scrimmage Kick questions
« on: January 04, 2021, 09:40:30 AM »
Need some help with these... from an NCAA rules email study group.  Show/explain to me what I didn't get correct (this is my first attempt at answering)

1)   A4/10@B17. Second possession, of the first overtime period, A is trailing by 3. A2s FG attempt is blocked behind the LOS and subsequently crosses the NZ. The ball is rolling near the B3 when A66 bats the ball into the EZ, and A99 jumps on the ball in the EZ.

Score is cancelled (3-1-3-g-2)
Illegal bat, rule 4-1-c (‘No player shall bat other loose balls forward in the field of play…’) Side question - since A66 added new impetus to the ball, does that constitute possession, as 3-1-3-g says that penalties after a change in possession are declined by rule?

If not declined by rule (see question above), if B accepts the penalty, A would repeat 4th down from the B27.  If they decline, B's ball 1/10 at A25.

If this were regular time, not OT: 
Illegal bat, rule 4-1-c (‘No player shall bat other loose balls forward in the field of play…’)
10 yard penalty, no loss of down since the ball was beyond the LOS (Exception in penalty statement:  No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone)
If B declines the penalty, A repeats 4th down at B27.  If B accepts, B’s ball 1/10 on B13.


2)   A4/5@A-30. A1s punt is blocked at the A-21 by B88 who subsequently crashes into the A1s plant leg. The ball is muffed by B5 at the A-32 and then recovered by A55 at the A-27, A55 runs to the A-33 where he fumbles. Grounded A22 recovers the fumble at the A40. Ruling - correct mechanics?

Result of the play is a fumble recovered by A22 at the A-40.  B88 commits a foul for roughing the kicker (9-1-16).  Since there were no other fouls by A or B, rest of action is irrelevant in terms of possession and ball location, as it will be A’s ball 1st and 10 at the A-36.  For mechanics, you would beanbag the muff by B5 at the A32, and beanbag the fumble by A55 at the A-33. (I’m not sure what else they are looking for mechanics-wise?)

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2021, 09:59:38 AM »
Well, in 1) there is no score to cancel as the recovery by A99 in the end zone is also illegal touching, thus the ball belongs to team B in the end zone for an apparent touchback. Team B will obviously decline the penalty for the illegal bat, game ends, team B wins.

In 2) I don't have a penalty on B88 as he touched the kick (9-1-16-a-6). The punt crossed the neutral zone so it is dead where A55 recovers it. The recovery is legal and the series of downs got broken, so it will be 1/10 for team A at A-27. Some of the relevant rules are 2-16-7-b, 5-1-1-e-2, 6-3-3, and 6-3-6-a.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2021, 10:12:47 AM »
Makes total sense on 1, thank you!

And 2 - I completely ignored the fact that the blocker was the one who hit the kicker, which as you said totally changes the outcome. 

Just for convo purposes, same scenario but the ball blocker was not the one who hit the kicker - was my interpretation of rules correct?

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-58
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2021, 11:20:40 AM »
Side question - since A66 added new impetus to the ball, does that constitute possession, as 3-1-3-g says that penalties after a change in possession are declined by rule?

Just a couple of comments on these two areas in your assessment of the plays.  Adding new impetus would not constitute possession.  The requirements for possession do not change.  We still need firm control of the ball with a body part down inbounds.



  For mechanics, you would beanbag the muff by B5 at the A32,

I see this happen quite often with officials bagging a muff by team B.  We should not bag a muff by team B as that spot will never be needed for anything.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 12:29:55 PM »
Just for convo purposes, same scenario but the ball blocker was not the one who hit the kicker - was my interpretation of rules correct?

What is the enforcement spot for roughing the kicker foul penalties?

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2021, 01:20:55 PM »
10-2-2-4-a and b:
Kick plays.
(a) Previous spot, on legal kick plays unless the foul is governed by postscrimmage kick rules.
(b) Postscrimmage kick spot, if the foul is governed by postscrimmage kick rules.

For B, this is not PSK, because all conditions are not met:
not during a try, successful field goal, or extra period: yes
ball crossed neutral zone:  yes
foul occurs before end of kick:  yes
team B next t put ball in play no

So enforcement is at previous spot, so A 1/10 at A45. 

(I swear I knew that, I've said before sometimes with written questions I have a hard time 'seeing' the play develop and use the wrong spot or yardline.  That said, I feel like 'talking these through' like this is by far the best way for me to learn, it makes me look up the relevant rules and eventually they'll stick.)

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-58
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2021, 02:04:34 PM »
Keep the questions coming.   Nobody expands their knowledge when we are idle.

Offline ump_ben

  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-0
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2021, 04:30:24 PM »
10-2-2-4-a and b:
Kick plays.
(a) Previous spot, on legal kick plays unless the foul is governed by postscrimmage kick rules.
(b) Postscrimmage kick spot, if the foul is governed by postscrimmage kick rules.

For B, this is not PSK, because all conditions are not met:
not during a try, successful field goal, or extra period: yes
ball crossed neutral zone:  yes
foul occurs before end of kick:  yes
team B next t put ball in play no

So enforcement is at previous spot, so A 1/10 at A45. 

(I swear I knew that, I've said before sometimes with written questions I have a hard time 'seeing' the play develop and use the wrong spot or yardline.  That said, I feel like 'talking these through' like this is by far the best way for me to learn, it makes me look up the relevant rules and eventually they'll stick.)
You're missing something have you ever seen RTK with PSK enforcement?

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2021, 04:40:48 PM »
Now that I think about it, no, LOL.  But, I was just stepping through the process of elimination of saying that (b) doesn't apply (thinking out loud.)

But, PSK wouldn't apply because it is an automatic first down, correct?

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 2116
  • FAN REACTION: +301/-25
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2021, 08:59:27 PM »
Now that I think about it, no, LOL.  But, I was just stepping through the process of elimination of saying that (b) doesn't apply (thinking out loud.)

But, PSK wouldn't apply because it is an automatic first down, correct?

PSK wouldn't apply because the statement of the penalty for RRK specifies previous spot (and also Team A is next to put the ball in play, so 2 reasons not to have PSK).

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • FAN REACTION: +112/-58
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 09:21:27 PM »
PSK wouldn't apply because the statement of the penalty for RRK specifies previous spot (and also Team A is next to put the ball in play, so 2 reasons not to have PSK).

Now throw in a scenario where Team A scores a 6 pt. TD on a play that also had RRK.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 11:27:50 PM »
Had A scored on the kick, 10-2-5-a-1 would apply.

Fouls During Or After A Touchdown, Field Goal or Try:
ARTICLE 5. a. Fouls by the nonscoring team during a down that ends in a touchdown (not on the try).
1. Fifteen-yard penalties for personal fouls and for unsportsmanlike conduct fouls are enforced on the try, the succeeding kickoff or from the succeeding spot in extra periods at the option of the scoring team.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2021, 01:42:18 AM »
PSK wouldn't apply because the statement of the penalty for RRK specifies previous spot (and also Team A is next to put the ball in play, so 2 reasons not to have PSK).

Yup, which makes sense, as you don't really really really want to give the ball over to team B in this case. So, as this foul always happens during the kick, you need to have the enforcement to be from the previous spot and not from the basic spot like most other PF fouls.

Now, just for fun, what other fouls in rule 9-1 are not basic spot fouls? :) (You can probably guess them from the context)

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2021, 10:16:00 AM »
Yup, which makes sense, as you don't really really really want to give the ball over to team B in this case. So, as this foul always happens during the kick, you need to have the enforcement to be from the previous spot and not from the basic spot like most other PF fouls.

Now, just for fun, what other fouls in rule 9-1 are not basic spot fouls? :) (You can probably guess them from the context)

All personal fouls?  (i.e., clipping, roughing passer/kicker, HCT, etc.)

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2021, 10:23:36 AM »
All personal fouls?  (i.e., clipping, roughing passer/kicker, HCT, etc.)

If you read the very beginning of rule 9-1, which fouls does the penalty statement there apply to? If you stop to think, I think you'll realize that your statement "no personal foul has a basic spot enforcement" is incorrect.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2021, 10:35:39 AM »
Unnecessary roughness fouls.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2021, 10:40:40 AM »
Unnecessary roughness fouls.

So, only UNR fouls are basic spot? If so, then what is your ruling in these play situations?

1/10 A-20. Ball carrier A33 runs to A-40 where he is tackled. During A33's run, A55 grabs and twists the facemask of B99 at A-22.

1/10 A-20. Ball carrier A33 runs to A-22 where B99 attempts to tackle him. B99 grabs and twists the facemask of A33 but loses his grip. A33 then continues the run until he is tackled at A-40.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2021, 10:53:18 AM »
I think we are talking around each other, as I am not clear on what you are asking...  I'm simply trying to answer the specific question that you asked, 'If you read the very beginning of rule 9-1, which fouls does the penalty statement there apply to?'

9.1 reads 'All fouls in this section (unless noted) and any other acts of unnecessary roughness are personal fouls.'  So I was incorrect when I said just UNR, but I am not understanding your statements about what I said about basic spots, because I didn't make a statement about basic spots.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2021, 12:53:44 PM »
9.1 reads 'All fouls in this section (unless noted) and any other acts of unnecessary roughness are personal fouls.'  So I was incorrect when I said just UNR, but I am not understanding your statements about what I said about basic spots, because I didn't make a statement about basic spots.

My original question was: "which fouls in rule 9-1 have a penalty that is NOT enforced from the basic spot", and I thought your original answer to this was "all of them", ie "none of the fouls in 9-1 have a penalty that is enforced from the BS."

So, assuming that SOME 9-1 fouls are enforced from the BS, which of the 9-1 fouls are NOT enforced from BS? Trust me, that list is the shorter one (and relates to the topic) :)

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2021, 03:12:00 PM »
I think I am tracking you now.  I think.  :)

The foul for standing on your teammate's back or shoulders before the snap is 15 yards from succeeding spot, not basic spot.

Also, dead ball targeting foul is 15 yards from the succeeding spot.








Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 01:33:30 AM »
I think I am tracking you now.  I think.  :)

The foul for standing on your teammate's back or shoulders before the snap is 15 yards from succeeding spot, not basic spot.

Also, dead ball targeting foul is 15 yards from the succeeding spot.

Yup, now we are talking about the same thing :) Are those two the only ones? Are there any other live-ball fouls in 9-1 that are not basic spot enforcement? I think you can guess one based on the previous discussion.

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2021, 08:43:31 AM »
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays: Enforcement may be either at the previous spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B (field-goal plays exempted) (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).

For Team B personal fouls during a legal forward pass play (Rules 7-3-12 and 10-2-2-e): Enforcement is at the end of the last run when it ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of team possession during the down. If the pass is incomplete or intercepted, or if there is a change of team possession during the down, the penalty is enforced at the previous spot.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 09:00:36 AM »
For Team A fouls during free or scrimmage kick plays: Enforcement may be either at the previous spot or the spot where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B (field-goal plays exempted) (Rules 6-1-8 and 6-3-13).

For Team B personal fouls during a legal forward pass play (Rules 7-3-12 and 10-2-2-e): Enforcement is at the end of the last run when it ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of team possession during the down. If the pass is incomplete or intercepted, or if there is a change of team possession during the down, the penalty is enforced at the previous spot.

I did not mean to ask for this. I meant to ask which actual fouls (eg. RTK) are fouls that are never enforced from basic spot (ie. have a specific enforcement spot listed in the penalty statement).


Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 1170
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-8
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 09:57:56 AM »
roughing the kicker:  PENALTY [a-b]—Roughing or any other personal foul against the kicker who is in the act or just after kicking the ball: 15 yards from the previous spot, plus automatic first down if not in conflict with other rules.

leaping:  PENALTY [a-d]—15 yards, previous spot and automatic first down. 

why:  for scrimmage kicks, the basic spot is always the end of the kick.

That's all that I am seeing in 9.1, what am I still missing?



Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3307
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Scrimmage Kick questions
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 11:34:38 AM »
roughing the kicker:  PENALTY [a-b]—Roughing or any other personal foul against the kicker who is in the act or just after kicking the ball: 15 yards from the previous spot, plus automatic first down if not in conflict with other rules.

leaping:  PENALTY [a-d]—15 yards, previous spot and automatic first down. 

why:  for scrimmage kicks, the basic spot is always the end of the kick.

That's all that I am seeing in 9.1, what am I still missing?

Yup, leaping was the other one I was looking for (technically also RTP which has the add-on speciality).

Also, your statement about the basic spot on scrimmage kicks is not correct. The basic spot is either the previous spot or the postscrimmage kick spot.