Author Topic: 3-4-3 Timing Play  (Read 3013 times)

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Offline JasonTX

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3-4-3 Timing Play
« on: March 16, 2018, 09:37:27 AM »
Team B leads by 6 points with 1:40 left in the game and the game clock is running.  3rd and 10 at the 50.  A10 takes the snap and runs for a 5 yard gain and is stopped in-bounds.  B90 was flagged for being offside.  The L, who threw the flag, stops the clock at the end of the play to report the foul to the R.  While the foul is being reported, the H notices a team B player go down with an injury.  Ruling:

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 11:18:25 AM »
This is not specifically covered in the rules, but the purpose of the injury rule is to prevent abuse of the clock by the team with the ‘injured’ player.  In this case, Team B gains advantage in letting their defense get some additional rest before the next play.  If they attend to the player before the ball is ready for play following administration of the penalty, then the penalty administration governs, and I’d do nothing.  But, if the injured player and team are not fully ready to play after the penalty administration, then I’d charge them with an injury T/O, require the player to leave the game for the next down, invoke 3-4-3 and set the play clock to 25, and start the game clock on the SNAP.

Robert

Johnponz

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 11:58:19 AM »
I do not agree with the part about Team B getting additional rest.  However, I do agree that they would get a time advantage if you would apply the rule as written, and you start the clock on the ready.  I would invoke 3-4-3, set the play clock to 40 as you do with any B injury and start the clock on the snap.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 02:30:42 PM »
I do not agree with the part about Team B getting additional rest.  However, I do agree that they would get a time advantage if you would apply the rule as written, and you start the clock on the ready.  I would invoke 3-4-3, set the play clock to 40 as you do with any B injury and start the clock on the snap.

Johnny,
Team B is AHEAD, so they don't get a time advantage.  I'm sure they would prefer to let the clock run, since they are giving Team A another down with the accepted offside penalty, instead of going to 4th down.  But, Team B may be "winded" and could use an extra 30 seconds to recover before the next down.
If the game clock won't start until snap, it is pointless to have the play clock set to 40.  Following the penalty announcement, if the injured player is still on the field and being tended, the R should announce, "Injury time out - State University. Play clock operator, please set the play clock to 25 seconds.  The game clock will start on the snap."  Be sure Team A has all their players they want on the field, and declare the ball ready.

Robert

Johnponz

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 09:57:32 AM »
I disagree again.  If you look at the quick clock tutorial put out by CFO any B injury requires the play clock to be set to :40.  I cannot for the life of me see how this is an advantage for B.  A is free to snap the ball anytime before the play clock runs out.  Why disadvantage team A by not giving them the extra time to snap the ball that the rules allow if there is a B injury? There is nothing preventing A from snapping the ball anytime before the :40 if they choose.  Maybe A is winded and wants to use the extra time the rules allow.  It is really up to A when they snap the ball.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 10:37:47 AM »
I disagree again.  If you look at the quick clock tutorial put out by CFO any B injury requires the play clock to be set to :40.  I cannot for the life of me see how this is an advantage for B.  A is free to snap the ball anytime before the play clock runs out.  Why disadvantage team A by not giving them the extra time to snap the ball that the rules allow if there is a B injury? There is nothing preventing A from snapping the ball anytime before the :40 if they choose.  Maybe A is winded and wants to use the extra time the rules allow.  It is really up to A when they snap the ball.

Johnny,
The play clock is not the advantage.  The advantage is the additional real time that B gets with the injury time out, which, as we all know, is very possibly bogus, simply to buy some extra time for that team to recover their wind, replace players, etc.  In that case, the R should definitely invoke 3-4-3, send the injured player off for the next down, and start the game clock on the snap.
You are correct in that the basic rule indicates to set the play clock to 40.  But that is intended to keep the team behind in score from gaining a game clock advantage by feigning an injury that (previously) would have set the play clock to 25, this, limiting the winning team’s ability to burn time off the game clock.  But, if the game clock isn’t going to run until the snap, that would just be a senseless waste of real time.  (And we all know how TV is screaming to reduce total game times, and that feces flows downhill to the game officials, like it is their fault teams are throwing 150 passes per game.)  If we make sure the opponent of the injury team has the personnel they want, there is no reason for a 40 second play clock.  25 is, by far, way more than enough for Team A to call a play, get into formation - even call an audible - and snap the ball.  The R can use 3-4-3 to make that happen.

Robert

Johnponz

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 11:02:12 AM »
I am going to start over with the first part.  There is a foul by the team ahead in score within the last 2 minutes of the half (game).  Team A now gets the choice of whether to start the clock on the ready or the snap-they will most likely choose the snap- (3-4-3).  You are right about B being ahead.  I had to reread the original play and really dissect it.

As far as the play clock, by rule A is allowed :40 to do with what they please.  There is no reason to take this away.  You can rationalize as much as you want but this is by rule.   

Take a look at AR 3.3.5 VII.  It is clear that anytime there is a B injury, the play clock is set to :40. 

This is spelled out further in the 2015 memo from Rogers Redding entitled "10-Second Runoff-Play Situations." 

http://cfo.arbitersports.com/Groups/104777/Library/files/2015%2010%20second%20runoff%20plays.pdf

#21 late in the game there is a B injury and the clock will start on the snap (in this case because of an incomplete pass).  The play clock is still set to :40 despite the clock starting on the snap.

This seems definitive.


« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 11:50:41 AM by Johnponz »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 02:46:58 PM »
John,
By all means, set the play clock to 40.  As previously noted, you certainly have rule support and bulletin direction to do so. 
But, if there is any point to giving Team A 40 seconds to snap the ball when the game clock won’t start until the snap, I don’t know what it might be.  And, if there is, why don’t we have a 40-second clock after all fouls by Team B (ahead in score), during the last 2 minutes of the half?  (E.g., the given play, less the “”injury.”)
With the ‘encouragement’ that is being placed upon crews to reduce total game time, this would seem a good opportunity to use 3-4-3 and 9-2-2-c to speed the game without affecting the play of the game.  I assure you, not a sole on either sideline will complain, or even know the difference.

Robert



Offline JasonTX

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 02:53:08 PM »
The purpose of my question was not related to the play clock but instead on starting the game clock.  The rule states that the team behind in the score has the option of starting on the snap if the reason the clock was stopped was for the administration of the penalty only.  In my play we originally stopped the clock to deal with the penalty and while that is taking place and player goes to the ground due to an injury.  So now do we take away the option of starting the clock on the snap?

Johnponz

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Re: 3-4-3 Timing Play
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 03:16:13 PM »
The option remains because the rule states that the option applies if the clock was stopped only to administer the penalty. In your case that is what happened.  The injury occurred when the clock was already stopped so that fact has no bearing on the action that stopped the clock.

The injury would be a consideration if it occurred during the down and was an additional reason why the clock was stopped.  After much thought, I think in that case the correct thing to do is start the clock on the ready, but be sure everyone knows the clock will start on the ready so A knows they need to get the snap off quickly.

To add another wrinkle if there was a B injury and  B foul during the down and there was less than 1:00 remaining in the half (game) the 10 second subtraction would apply because both actions that stopped the clock were by the same team.  If A wants the Zap-10 the game clock will by rule start on the ready. Again 40 seconds will be placed on the play clock because of the B injury.  If A does not want the Zap-10 by rule the game clock will start on the snap and again the play clock will be set to :40.

To reiterate, in the original play, the option remains.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 03:26:06 PM by Johnponz »