PSK

[hoochycoochy]

... If it makes sense, I'll gladly try it....

Therein lies the core of the issue.  It seems to me you've made it your goal on here to do just the opposite.  That's why so many on here are on your case. 

[AlUpstateNY]

Therein lies the core of the issue.  It seems to me you've made it your goal on here to do just the opposite.  That's why so many on here are on your case. 

What, specifically, have you ever offered that's made any sense?  I'll give you a choice hoochy, I'll consider you seriously either when you grow up or offer something of value, whichever comes first.

[hoochycoochy]

What, specifically, have you ever offered that's made any sense?  I'll give you a choice hoochy, I'll consider you seriously either when you grow up or offer something of value, whichever comes first.

You NOT considering me seriously is a compliment. 

[skip1]

If you cannot have a PSK foul on a kick that does not cross the ENZ how can it be a foul at the snap? If using the window it doesn't open until the ball is kicked and crosses the ENZ.

[hoochycoochy]

If you cannot have a PSK foul on a kick that does not cross the ENZ how can it be a foul at the snap? If using the window it doesn't open until the ball is kicked and crosses the ENZ.

In order for R's foul to be subject to PSK enforcement it has to meet all five parts of the definition.  I believe the NF makes it effective at the snap because there would be circumstances where there could be a significant time elapse between the snap and the kick, ie, the ball is snapped over the kicker's head and there's a scramble.  In this situation we'd be forced to pay attention to the different time frames that would be involved.  Would the 5-10 seconds between the snap, recovery and punt NOT be PSK and then once the ball flies over the NZ be PSK?  Making it retroactive to the snap takes guesswork out of the situation for us.  I believe it also helps the NF maintain the PSK philosophy that K is giving up the ball and will not get the ball back in a cheap way under most circumstances.

[AlUpstateNY]

If you cannot have a PSK foul on a kick that does not cross the ENZ how can it be a foul at the snap? If using the window it doesn't open until the ball is kicked and crosses the ENZ.

You can’t.  It's easier to understand PSK when you understand the rational behind creating PSK.  Prior to PSK all, live ball fouls prior to and/or during a kick committed either by K or R were loose ball fouls, which would involve previous spot enforcement and repeating the down, with possession beingretained by A/K. (if accepted).  (Roughing the passer is a unique enforcement)

The logic was that treating ALL R fouls as loose ball, unfairly and excessively penalized B/R as in addition to the penalty for whatever foul committed, it deprived B/R of the advantage they had earned by causing A/K to surrender possession of the ball by choosing to kick. 

When B/R fouls after the requirements of PSK are met, enforcement is changed from loose ball to PSK, which allows B/R to keep the advantage they earned, by forcing A/K to choose to kick, and retain possession of the ball, following payment for whatever foul R committed after the kick was actually made and satisfied the requirements of PSK.

When those requirements are NOT satisfied, whatever live ball foul was committed by R reverts back to loose ball foul enforcement, or end of the run enforcement should the ball not become loose. 

[jjseikel]

When B/R fouls after the requirements of PSK are met, enforcement is changed from loose ball to PSK...

This statement is incorrect. The foul(s) are not required to be committed after the requirements of PSK are met. Example: one of the requirements of PSK is that R will next snap the ball therefore if they foul after this requirement is met, it would be a dead ball foul not PSK. The "window" or time that R could commit a PSK foul begins at the snap and ends with the end of the kick.

[footballref]

You seem plagued by some negative history, or some problem, with the role of a clock operator, Magician.  It almost sounds like you hold yourself above that role, perhaps because you, and a few mouthy colleagues, have convinced yourselves to believe some exaggerated illusions of self importance, which seems a more common malady with the least mature of our profession. 

I don’t know how long you’ve been doing, this thing we do, but based on the quality of your offerings and your attitude, I feel comfortable presuming it hasn’t been all that long, or has yet been all that effective.  Not that it matters much, other than for accumulating enjoyable experiences and memories, but I suspect I’ve spent more seasons between football sidelines than you’ve spent on this planet.   

I don’t know how things are set up in your area, but here, we require all our game timers to be certified, active officials who are part of the assigned game crew who participate fully from pre-game meetings to post-game reviews.  We’ve found the exposure helps broaden our newer official’s perspective and provides opportunity for senior officials to remain involved and lend constructive experience and advice.

If you choose to continue officiating, at some point you, will hopefully, come to understand that no matter how smart you think you’ve become, about the intricacies of the rules and mechanics of our craft, they are not nearly as important as the wisdom and maturity you will be counted on to bring to the application of those rules and mechanics that are designed, primarily, to assist in the management and supervision of the game.

If you last, you’ll eventually realize that the more you think you know, only exposes you to understanding, more clearly, how much more there is for you to learn.  It’s really a road you’ll never get to the end of, and the sooner you accept the reality that you will continue to leave an odor behind in any bathrooms you use along the way, will make the trip a lot more enjoyable. 

So, after all that....you really didn't answer other than trying to say how important an ECO is. I will take it that you do nothing other than run the clock. Right?

Our ECO are also officials that participate in everything and are part of the crew. Typically only the younger guys or the ones too old to move are full time ECOs. Everyone will do it at some point but we also spend our fair share of time on the field.

Did I leave out some commas?

[jjseikel]

Did I leave out some commas?

Nope. There were not any more available. He used 28 (when only 3 were necessary) which puts the 2011 allotment in serious jeopardy. At that rate, the comma inventory will be exhausted before July. But fear not. There is an abundance of periods, exclamation and question marks.

[Mike L]

If you cannot have a PSK foul on a kick that does not cross the ENZ how can it be a foul at the snap? If using the window it doesn't open until the ball is kicked and crosses the ENZ.

It seems a number of people are getting hung up on the terminology of "POST" scrimmage kick and think the foul must come after the kick due to the "POST" part somehow implying "after" the kick. Which I guess is understandable due to how "POST" is often used in English. However, in the rule book PSK is a procedure to determine an enforcement spot for a foul by R that happens during a down in which the 5 PSK conditions are met, ie "after" the down as a whole is over. Two of those conditions together amount to the foul by R must be after the snap and before the end of the kick. So if it helps you to remember those conditions as a "window" or "time frame" or whatever, what's the harm? Just so long as you correctly remember it.
A foul at the snap cannot be a PSK foul, because by rule all fouls simultaneous with the snap are enforced from the previous spot.

editted to correct the conditions ref

[AlUpstateNY]

So, after all that....you really didn't answer other than trying to say how important an ECO is. I will take it that you do nothing other than run the clock. Right?

Our ECO are also officials that participate in everything and are part of the crew. Typically only the younger guys or the ones too old to move are full time ECOs. Everyone will do it at some point but we also spend our fair share of time on the field. Did I leave out some commas?

You'll have to forgive me, footballref, but I just don't get your objective.  From your tone, you sound like one of those officials who has convinced himself you are somewhat "special", and somehow better than, "the younger guys or the ones too old to move".  More than likely, I'm afraid, that is a self assessed exaggeration doubtfully shared by those who work with you created by an ego pathetically desperate for attention.

Perhaps just my limited experience, but I've never found officials, who are overly impressed with themselves as ever measuring up to those self assessments.  It seems those who talk about how "special" they are, rarely turn out to actually be.

I do appreciate your concern, and that of Jaybird, for my grammatical shortcomings.  It’s the type guidance I’ve missed since some very kindly Nuns tried so hard to correct long ago.  If only either of you could muster something of value to aid my efforts to keep abreast of what I need to understand about football officiating, I’d be ever so grateful.  It doesn’t seem, unfortunately, you have very much to offer in that regard, with all your attention being focused towards what you, apparently, consider so much more important. I guess I’ll just have to muddle by without your assistance.

[jjseikel]

I guess I’ll just have to muddle by without your assistance.

Good Luck.

[mgussy]

It is a terrific objective to keep our rule book as simple and “wieldy” as possible.  I don’t have “an issue with the meaning of this word when it is applied to a span of time.”  My suggestion simply was that the word “window” has no application related to this rule, so why clutter any discussion with it? 

The wording of the rule seems reasonably clear and understandable to most, why muck it up with concepts that aren’t relevant?  Is there some part of  NF: 2-16-h that even remotely hints at the existence, or relevance, of a “window” ?

I know we had the problem of defining "window" earlier.  But lets see if we can get this one.
wind·bag
n.
1. The flexible air-filled chamber of a bagpipe or similar instrument.
2. Slang A talkative person who communicates nothing of substance or interest.
 

[LarryW60]

Wow.  Al sure has raised a ruckus in here.  Regardless, I'm going to continue using the term "window" in regards to the time when PSK enforcement must be used because: (a.) It is standard English that doesn't need explanation to anyone above an elementary school-level education, and (b.) I'm not one to be locked into only using words found in the rule book when discussing the game covered by the rule book.  I realize that economy in communication is a good thing as long as the communication is still understood.  "PSK window" is certainly more economical than "the time between when the ball is snapped for a scrimmage kick and when said scrimmage kick is recovered or becomes dead prior to possession."

[AlUpstateNY]

Didn't intend to raise ay "ruckus" Fadamore, you have always been free to do exactly as you choose, for whatever reasons you choose, and you don't need my permission nor is there any need for me to undersand or approve of what you choose to do, or why you choose to do it.  If it works for you, is all that should matter to you.

[Bob M.]

If you cannot have a PSK foul on a kick that does not cross the ENZ how can it be a foul at the snap? If using the window, it doesn't open until the ball is kicked and crosses the ENZ.

REPLY: Not quite sure what you're trying to say, skip. But here's a play where the PSK foul occurs after the snap but before the kick:
PLAY: Ball is snapped to the punter who muffs it. While the ball is rolling loose behind the neutral zone, gunner K2 is grabbed by R1 and tackled 10 yards downfield at R's 30. Now, the punter picks up the loose ball and kicks it downfield (past the ENZ). Ball rolls to a stop at R's 18. RULING: Even though the foul occurred before the kick, PSK enforcement for R1's holding foul. Penalize half the distance. R's ball, 1-10 from R's 9.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

If I understand this correctly, the"window" or  POSSIBILITY of a foul with PSK enforcement starts at the snap, but that enforcement is not triggered unless all of the conditions for it are met, including the kick crossing the expanded neutral zone. So, it doesn't matter when the foul occurred during the down, as long as all of the other conditions for PSK are met.

[AlUpstateNY]

If I understand this correctly, the"window" or  POSSIBILITY of a foul with PSK enforcement starts at the snap, but that enforcement is not triggered unless all of the conditions for it are met, including the kick crossing the expanded neutral zone. So, it doesn't matter when the foul occurred during the down, as long as all of the other conditions for PSK are met.

BINGO, all you're going to get from a "window" is a draft.

[Mike L]

If I understand this correctly, the"window" or  POSSIBILITY of a foul with PSK enforcement starts at the snap, but that enforcement is not triggered unless all of the conditions for it are met, including the kick crossing the expanded neutral zone. So, it doesn't matter when the foul occurred during the down, as long as all of the other conditions for PSK are met.

Actually, it does matter because the down does not end just because the kick has ended. Two of the conditions of PSK enforcment is after the snap and before the end of the kick.  So saying "it doesn't matter when during the down the foul happens" while also saying "as long the conditions of PSK are met" is contradicting yourself.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Actually, it does matter because the down does not end just because the kick has ended. The down does not end once R gains possession of the kick and begin his run. PSK enforcement can only occur if the foul by R is after the snap and before the end of the kick. So saying it doesn't matter when during the down it happens while also saying the conditions of PSK must be met is contradicting yourself.

Perhaps I could have written more precisely, or included the post to which I was responding. The original question was when the "window" or opportunity for PSK enforcement begins, and Bob M replied to Skip1 with a play that mentioned PSK enforcement on fouls that occurred before the kick.

 I was addressing when the "window" opens (at the snap rather than when the ball is kicked etc.) I did not address when the "window" closes, since that is not what the question was about.

When the foul occurs has no bearing on when the "window" opens. It opens at the snap. Whether you apply PSK enforcement to a foul that occurs after that depends on all of the other conditions being met.

[Bob M.]

If I understand this correctly, the"window" or  POSSIBILITY of a foul with PSK enforcement starts at the snap, but that enforcement is not triggered unless all of the conditions for it are met, including the kick crossing the expanded neutral zone. So, it doesn't matter when the foul occurred during the down, as long as all of the other conditions for PSK are met.

REPLY: Correct. And as you clarified, as long as the foul occurred before the kick ended.

[RickKY]

You can’t.  It's easier to understand PSK when you understand the rational behind creating PSK.  Prior to PSK all, live ball fouls prior to and/or during a kick committed either by K or R were loose ball fouls, which would involve previous spot enforcement and repeating the down, with possession beingretained by A/K. (if accepted).  (Roughing the passer is a unique enforcement)

The logic was that treating ALL R fouls as loose ball, unfairly and excessively penalized B/R as in addition to the penalty for whatever foul committed, it deprived B/R of the advantage they had earned by causing A/K to surrender possession of the ball by choosing to kick. 

When B/R fouls after the requirements of PSK are met, enforcement is changed from loose ball to PSK, which allows B/R to keep the advantage they earned, by forcing A/K to choose to kick, and retain possession of the ball, following payment for whatever foul R committed after the kick was actually made and satisfied the requirements of PSK.

When those requirements are NOT satisfied, whatever live ball foul was committed by R reverts back to loose ball foul enforcement, or end of the run enforcement should the ball not become loose. 

Al would it be correct to add the following to your explanation above?
If the PSK requirements are met, then we're going to assume possession changed before the foul, and enforcement will take place as if it occured after the kick.  Thus B retains possession by virtue of forcing A to give up the ball voluntarily.

[Bob M.]

Al would it be correct to add the following to your explanation above?
If the PSK requirements are met, then we're going to assume possession changed before the foul, and enforcement will take place as if it occured after the kick.  Thus B retains possession by virtue of forcing A to give up the ball voluntarily.

REPLY: RickKY...I can't help it, but I break out in hives when I hear PSK described in terms of possession changing before it really has. Mainly because I fear it will confuse the newer guys. Possession isn't really a factor in PSK except for one place: Once possession changes, a legal scrimmage kick ends and there's no more possibility for a PSK enforceable foul.

Let's summarize this way...a foul by R enforceable under PSK may occur anytime between the snap and the end of the kick. That interval is what people have been calling the "window" for PSK. Now there are still other criteria that must be met, namely: foul (by R) must occur beyond the ENZ; the kick must cross the ENZ, but doesn't need to remain there; at the conclusion of the down, K must not be entitled to next put the ball in play. Though the Fed doesn't like to say it, PSK is an exception to the regular enforcement rules for fouls during a loose ball play.

[AlUpstateNY]

Unfortunately the word "play" is not defined in NFHS rules, although the term "Down", which is consistently interchangeable with the word "Play", is defined.  (NF: 2-7:  "A down is action which starts with a legal snap (beginning a scrimmage down) or when the ball is kicked on a free kick (beginning a free-kick down). A down ends when the ball next becomes dead.")

The first requirement of a PSK foul is that, (the foul occurs) 1. During Scrimmage Kick plays (which begin with a legal snap).  The 4th requirement is that the foul occurs, 4."Before the end of the kick", and NF: 2-24-2 clearly defines, "A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession".

If the undefined term "window" helps clarify or enhance the understanding of these time frame relationships, fine, but it also apparently causes some confusion that is unnecessary, and seems to mean different things to different people.

[LarryW60]

Which brings me back to my original observation that it's counter-intuitive that something called a POST-scrimmage kick foul can happen BEFORE the ball is kicked during a scrimmage kick play - if the other conditions are met. (Sorry for using the undefined word "play" here.)  I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, just that the naming of the PSK definition doesn't really describe when it applies and that's probably where the interpreter in the OP got derailed.

Let's be honest, if it truly WAS a foul happening "post-scrimmage kick" (by normal English usage of the prefix "post" and the NFHS definition of "scrimmage kick"), then it would a foul that happened AFTER the scrimmage kick had ended but before the down had ended.  The naming is just screwy.  Just calling it "scrimmage kick enforcement" would be closer to when it really applies.