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Offline sczeebra

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Penalty Enforcement
« on: July 25, 2017, 06:53:17 AM »
B intercepts at his 4yd line his momentum carries the ball across his goal. A grabs and twists B's face mask while in the end zone. B then fumbles the ball across the goal line where it goes out of bounds at his 2yd line. Where is the spot for penalty enforcement? Is the end of the run in the end zone or do we consider it the 4yd line because of the momentum rule. Surely not the dead ball spot. As always, thank you Ladies and Gentlemen.
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Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 06:58:27 AM »
Basic spot is the goal line.  Momentum spot off because the ball did not become dead behind B's goal line.  10-4-7.
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Offline sczeebra

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 07:22:24 AM »
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, (10-4-7). "Regardless of where the ball becomes dead". Pointed out in plain sight within the rule.
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Offline js in sc

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 09:55:09 AM »
Rule 10-4-7 states "the person responsible for forcing the ball across his own goal line".  Remember, momentum is an exception to force.  Therefore, B did not force the ball across his goal line.  The end of the run is not in the end zone, but at the 4 yard line.  This is a foul during the run by B.  The basic spot for enforcement should be the end of the run, or the 4 yard line, not the goal line.
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Offline sczeebra

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2017, 11:18:38 AM »
I've got an idea of what you are saying JS. But within the momentum rule are we not talking about a play where the ball is declared dead in B's "possession or it goes out of bounds in the end zone" which is not the same scenario depicted here. I am now just as confused as when I left our meeting last night. 
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Offline js in sc

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2017, 01:57:44 PM »
But, the basic spot for fouls during a running play is the end of the run.  This run, with consideration of momemtum, ends at the 4 YL.  In order to enforce it from the goal line, the momentum exception should not be in consideration. If the run ends in the end zone, ie. the player forces the ball across the goal line without momentum, then it would be enforced from the goal line.  For example, if he got the ball at the 6 YL and ran into the end zone, then enforcement would be at the goal line.
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Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2017, 03:02:57 PM »
Quote from: js in sc on July 25, 2017, 01:57:44 PM
But, the basic spot for fouls during a running play is the end of the run.  This run, with consideration of momemtum, ends at the 4 YL.  In order to enforce it from the goal line, the momentum exception should not be in consideration. If the run ends in the end zone, ie. the player forces the ball across the goal line without momentum, then it would be enforced from the goal line.  For example, if he got the ball at the 6 YL and ran into the end zone, then enforcement would be at the goal line.

But we can't consider the momentum exception. The momentum exception does not apply to this play because one of the requirements of the momentum exception does not exist (Namely, the ball must become dead in the endzone).

So since momentum doesn't apply we just fall back to our standard procedures. The foul was during a running play, the basic spot on a running play is the end of the run. The end of the run is the spot of the fumble, which is in B's endzone. First and 10 for B at the 15 yard line. Clock on snap.
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Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 03:05:47 PM »
Crazier than this is the inverse, possibly my favorite rules question of all time:

B1 intercepts at his own 2yd line and his momentum takes him into the endzone. While B1 is in the end zone, B12 blocks in the back at the B8yd line. B1 then fumbles the ball which rolls out of bounds at the B4yd line.

Since momentum doesn't apply (ball didn't become dead in the endzone), the end of the run is the spot of enforcement which is in the endzone which makes this a safety. So despite the play not becoming dead in the endzone, the foul not being in the endzone, B's left giving two points to A.
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Offline VALJ

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 07:50:43 AM »
Quote from: SouthGARef on July 25, 2017, 03:05:47 PM
Crazier than this is the inverse, possibly my favorite rules question of all time:

B1 intercepts at his own 2yd line and his momentum takes him into the endzone. While B1 is in the end zone, B12 blocks in the back at the B8yd line. B1 then fumbles the ball which rolls out of bounds at the B4yd line.

Since momentum doesn't apply (ball didn't become dead in the endzone), the end of the run is the spot of enforcement which is in the endzone which makes this a safety. So despite the play not becoming dead in the endzone, the foul not being in the endzone, B's left giving two points to A.

With the succeeding free kick coming from the B 10, since there's no way B's coach is going to stay calm and avoid a USC foul after you explain that there's a safety for this play.  :)
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Offline Orin Robinson

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 03:11:27 PM »
Why is the succeeding free kick from the B-10? We have already enforced the penalty which resulted in the safety. So would we not kick from the B-20 since there would be no succeeding spot enforcement?

What'd I miss?

Oh, after the USC. Didn't read it right.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 03:13:33 PM by Orin Robinson »
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Offline animalspooker

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 04:04:19 PM »
It'll be at the 10 because the coach is going to get 15 yard flagrant after you award the other team 2 points.  Half the distance from the 20.   Right?
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 05:09:21 PM »
Quote from: animalspooker on August 02, 2017, 04:04:19 PM
It'll be at the 10 because the coach is going to get 15 yard flagrant after you award the other team 2 points.  Half the distance from the 20.   Right?
Wrong. If after enforcement for the BIB the B coach is flagged for UNS the free kick will be from the 5. And be careful using the word "flagrant."
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Offline VA Official

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 05:28:13 PM »
Quote from: Rulesman on August 02, 2017, 05:09:21 PM
Wrong. If after enforcement for the BIB the B coach is flagged for UNS the free kick will be from the 5. And be careful using the word "flagrant."

He does need to watch the use of the word flagrant and "15 yards," but the free kick following the safety would be from the 10. The enforcement of the BIB resulted in the safety, then the probable UNS was half the distance. No carry-over yards for safeties like on other scoring plays.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:31:11 PM by VA Official »
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 05:57:00 PM »
Quote from: VALJ on July 26, 2017, 07:50:43 AM
With the succeeding free kick coming from the B 10, since there's no way B's coach is going to stay calm and avoid a USC foul after you explain that there's a safety for this play.  :)

It's NEVER a good idea to assume, anticipate or allow BAD BEHAVIOR by any member of a game's Coaching Staff.  As an adult leader of this school, EVERY Head Coach is entitled to an explanation of any situation he may not properly understand.  However, he is expected, as well as REQUIRED to "stay calm" and respond in a civil and respectful manner, regardless of whether he understands and/or agrees with the explanation he's given.

There are no excuses, or free passes, for failing to remain "calm" and to maintain a civil, respectful composure under all circumstances.  We should always insist on those standards being met.
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 07:43:32 PM »
Quote from: VA Official on August 02, 2017, 05:28:13 PM
He does need to watch the use of the word flagrant and "15 yards," but the free kick following the safety would be from the 10. The enforcement of the BIB resulted in the safety, then the probable UNS was half the distance. No carry-over yards for safeties like on other scoring plays.
You are right. Brain cramp here. Mea culpa.
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Penalty Enforcement
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2017, 05:52:15 AM »
As Ralph advocates: "Coach, BY RULE the enforcement results in a safety.
As bama_stripes advocates: "Coach, you ain't gonna like this, but..."

I'd do everything humanly possible to avoid a USC on this unusual play.
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