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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: the clown on December 04, 2016, 12:21:52 PM
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Last nights game we ran into this scenario. 10 seconds left in the half. A throws an incomplete pass 20 yards down field and the clock stops at 7 seconds which I don't really believe but I'm just the umpire and earlier it took a good clock operator 2 minutes to add 10 seconds to a neutral sight clock they were not familiar with. So with 7 seconds we have a field goal. The ball is kicked from about thirty yards out. The BJ and HL agree with the whole "Good Good - Step - Go Up" beautifully done if I might add. And the play that should take about 4 seconds, takes 7. One team is running off the field happy and the other is a little dismayed at us and the clock operator. I know the ball is dead when it crosses the plain of the goal line. At that point should there be a whistle? Does the signal stop the clock? What is the correct mechanic for someone too lazy to look it up?
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Last nights game we ran into this scenario. 10 seconds left in the half. A throws an incomplete pass 20 yards down field and the clock stops at 7 seconds which I don't really believe but I'm just the umpire and earlier it took a good clock operator 2 minutes to add 10 seconds to a neutral sight clock they were not familiar with. So with 7 seconds we have a field goal. The ball is kicked from about thirty yards out. The BJ and HL agree with the whole "Good Good - Step - Go Up" beautifully done if I might add. And the play that should take about 4 seconds, takes 7. One team is running off the field happy and the other is a little dismayed at us and the clock operator. I know the ball is dead when it crosses the plain of the goal line. At that point should there be a whistle? Does the signal stop the clock? What is the correct mechanic for someone too lazy to look it up?
The correct mechanic is to get a new clock operator.
In all seriousness, clock stops when the ball is dead. In this case, when kick crosses the goal line.
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A successful field goal with 7 seconds left would end the half EVERY TIME if I were the clock operator.
Just saying.... tiphat:
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A successful field goal with 7 seconds left would end the half EVERY TIME if I were the clock operator.
Just saying.... tiphat:
WOW!
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A successful field goal with 7 seconds left would end the half EVERY TIME if I were the clock operator.
Just saying.... tiphat:
I'm good with that. Most high school kickers don't move toward the ball until it is placed by the holder. Could easily be 2 seconds for snap and hold, 3-4 seconds of ball in the air. On a successful scoring attempt, the clock doesn't stop until the ball crosses the crossbar, and I can't expect the ECO to stop the clock precisely at that moment.
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The correct mechanic is to get a new clock operator. In all seriousness, clock stops when the ball is dead. In this case, when kick crosses the goal line. Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Are you sure of that? The closest I can find (in NFHS 3-4-4 is #g "A score ot Touchback occurs"), Since very few, if any ECO positions are manned from either goal line, it would be extremely unlikely an ECO would know, Precisely, when a ball crossed the goal, or in most situations actually passed between the posts.
In most, if not EVERY situation, it's a least doubtful a whistle would be heard in a booth. I guess it's possible for the official(s) on the scrimmage line, to move quickly to the goal line and signal "Touchback" (sig 7), but that seems somewhat excessive and removes focus from the line play action, which in most instances is more relevant.
The official signal (good/no-good) seems more likely consistent.
Actually the only reference I can find for a whistle, in the Official's Manual under field Goal/Try, is under BJ, L, FJ (6-B-2) "Sound whistle when successful kick passes upright or when it is apparently unsuccessful after breaking the goal-line plain"
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A successful field goal with 7 seconds left would end the half EVERY TIME if I were the clock operator.
Just saying.... tiphat:
I agree completely!
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A successful field goal with 7 seconds left would end the half EVERY TIME if I were the clock operator.
Just saying.... tiphat:
Any reason why, or just because you want it to? A 30 yard field goal takes <7s probably 99% of the time.
I hate this whole mentality of "don't stop the clock with less than two seconds". Tell Auburn and Alabama fans that one second can't make the difference in a ballgame. The clock stops when it stops. If that's one second, it's one second.
We're going to do about 160 plays in a game. What's one more?
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I can see 7 seconds on a 30+ yard field goal. Snap, hold, kick air time, officials communication and signal and time for ECO to hit the switch.
The clock can't stop when the ball crosses the GL because no one is there to indicate it and an ECO better not guess.
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Welcome, Clown, to the forum. may you find it both entertaining and informative. The ticker should be ticking until the z^ z^ signal ^good ^good or ^no ^no. As a NCAA clock operator I always stayed focused on the playing action and not what the clock read. I recall once stopping the clock as the runner was signaled OOB. Glancing then at the clock I realized it read 0:00.8 LEFT IN THE HALF. The run put the visitors in field goal range.... the home coach wasn't happy >:(.......the home fans followed the coach's cue >:( :( :o :P :-[ :-X :-\ :'(......the opposing kicker shanked the field goal attempt :bOW.....I lived to run the clock again tiphat:.....but, I felt I did it correctly.
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Welcome, Clown, to the forum. may you find it both entertaining and informative. The ticker should be ticking until the z^ z^ signal ^good ^good or ^no ^no. As a NCAA clock operator I always stayed focused on the playing action and not what the clock read. I recall once stopping the clock as the runner was signaled OOB. Glancing then at the clock I realized it read 0:00.8 LEFT IN THE HALF. The run put the visitors in field goal range.... the home coach wasn't happy >:(.......the home fans followed the coach's cue >:( :( :o :P :-[ :-X :-\ :'(......the opposing kicker shanked the field goal attempt :bOW.....I lived to run the clock again tiphat:.....but, I felt I did it correctly.
Whose bright idea was it to use tenths of seconds anyway?
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Whose bright idea was it to use tenths of seconds anyway?
Them there fancy clock makers, I 'spect. Many of us Mainers have just recently graduated from sundials to hour glasses.
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Whose bright idea was it to use tenths of seconds anyway?
Most control boards have a way to disable tenths. There is no need for tenths in football.
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Most control boards have a way to disable tenths. There is no need for tenths in football.
Literally 100% of clock operators in our area have no idea how to turn off the tenths.
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I ran the clock at a local school this year. The clock got stopped as soon as I had some sort of signal( ^good, ^no or a whistle). That did include stopping the clock on a field goal with 2 seconds left on the clock at the end of the first half.
The first thing I did was turn off the tenths. This controller was used only at the football field and stays in the box all year. They have a different controller for basketball where I beleive they do use tenths.
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Most control boards have a way to disable tenths. There is no need for tenths in football.
Agreed, but if the "real time" is 00:00.1 and you have disabled the tenths display, the clock will read 00:01. The change in format to tenths just confuses the masses and has no purpose in football IMO.
And waiting until the officials under the posts walk out, and then do the yes or no, then the signal, is incorrect. We instruct all CO's to stop the clock when it's clear that the kick has crossed the end line or touched the ground in the EZ whichever comes first.
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Our mechanics, in Alabama, require that the clock only stop when signaled to do so by an on field official. We teach our ECOs that if the field crew makes an error in stopping or starting the clock then they will correct it accordingly. We do not want our ECOs making the decision to start or stop the clock on their own.
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The BJ and HL agree with the whole "Good Good - Step - Go Up" beautifully done if I might add.
I don't have a problem with the clock expiring. My issue is an umpire being able to critique the mechanics of the guys under the uprights on a 30 yard field goal.
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Perhaps some of those field officials, who have never been inside a "booth", might benefit from some generic considerations most ECOs have little, if any, control over.
At the HS level, in general, no two booths are identical:
a. there is a variety of controllers, some older, some newer and like opinions, each is a little different.
b. some offer unobstructed glass walls, MOST have windows, that come with pillars, some a lot wider than others, that create temporary blind spots that need to be "worked around".
c. field lighting is unique to each site, some are great, most suck(at the HS level).
d. Many are high enough above the crowd, to avoid fan obstruction, many are not. For reasons known only to God, fans on the top row ALWAYS stand, if it's raining they ALL come with umbrellas.
e. Many booths get crowded (authorized/unauthorized) people, that can cause (momentary) distractions, that ONLY happen at the worst times.
f. Every now and then, clocks, or controllers, decided to act on their own (running your own back-up clock is a sound idea).
g. Coaches in the booth ask as many stupid questions as coaches on the sideline.
h. Wing officials, under 7'2" tall, get lost from sight, intermittently on the far sideline in front of the team box and are TOTALLY INVISIBLE on most near sideline team box areas, rendering most, if not all, incomplete pass signals given below the shoulders - invisible (SO IMPORTANT for middle field officials to relay Signal 3 and other relevant signals along both sidelines).
i. Time Out signalling, please don't be subtle, or stand on the sideline. Make your signal a "Big Deal" while moving away from sideline or players. Look at the clock as you signal. (REMEMBER: neither coaches nor players can ever CALL Time Out, they can REQUEST that YOU call Time Out, so it starts when YOU signal, not when THEY request (or started thinking about requesting).
j. Just as "Football is a game of inches" is a misunderstood myth, so is precision to the 1/10th of seconds.
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Our mechanics, in Alabama, require that the clock only stop when signaled to do so by an on field official. We teach our ECOs that if the field crew makes an error in stopping or starting the clock then they will correct it accordingly. We do not want our ECOs making the decision to start or stop the clock on their own.
Do we have that in the mechanics manual?
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I don't have a problem with the clock expiring. My issue is an umpire being able to critique the mechanics of the guys under the uprights on a 30 yard field goal.
I was very curious about that myself.
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Perhaps some of those field officials, who have never been inside a "booth", might benefit from some generic considerations most ECOs have little, if any, control over.
At the HS level, in general, no two booths are identical:
a. there is a variety of controllers, some older, some newer and like opinions, each is a little different.
b. some offer unobstructed glass walls, MOST have windows, that come with pillars, some a lot wider than others, that create temporary blind spots that need to be "worked around".
c. field lighting is unique to each site, some are great, most suck(at the HS level).
d. Many are high enough above the crowd, to avoid fan obstruction, many are not. For reasons known only to God, fans on the top row ALWAYS stand, if it's raining they ALL come with umbrellas.
e. Many booths get crowded (authorized/unauthorized) people, that can cause (momentary) distractions, that ONLY happen at the worst times.
f. Every now and then, clocks, or controllers, decided to act on their own (running your own back-up clock is a sound idea).
g. Coaches in the booth ask as many stupid questions as coaches on the sideline.
h. Wing officials, under 7'2" tall, get lost from sight, intermittently on the far sideline in front of the team box and are TOTALLY INVISIBLE on most near sideline team box areas, rendering most, if not all, incomplete pass signals given below the shoulders - invisible (SO IMPORTANT for middle field officials to relay Signal 3 and other relevant signals along both sidelines).
i. Time Out signalling, please don't be subtle, or stand on the sideline. Make your signal a "Big Deal" while moving away from sideline or players. Look at the clock as you signal. (REMEMBER: neither coaches nor players can ever CALL Time Out, they can REQUEST that YOU call Time Out, so it starts when YOU signal, not when THEY request (or started thinking about requesting).
j. Just as "Football is a game of inches" is a misunderstood myth, so is precision to the 1/10th of seconds.
Al, this is some pretty good info. I think that it is easy to get so involved in our own duties on the field, that we can forget that the clock guy has his own set of problems to deal with. Anything that we can do to make his job easier can't help but make the game go smoother for us too.
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I don't have a problem with the clock expiring. My issue is an umpire being able to critique the mechanics of the guys under the uprights on a 30 yard field goal.
Umpires are Omniscient and Omnipotent. We see all, hear all, and know all. We just let the rest of you think you know more than us. Now, back to my sNiCkErS
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So clock operators know the rules adequately enough to start the clock when the ball becomes live at the snap, but don't know when it becomes dead by rule on a down where the clock should stop and need to wait for an on-field signal before stopping the clock? That's not the mechanic in any game I've been in.
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So clock operators know the rules adequately enough to start the clock when the ball becomes live at the snap, but don't know when it becomes dead by rule on a down where the clock should stop and need to wait for an on-field signal before stopping the clock? That's not the mechanic in any game I've been in.
EXACTLY!
Clock operators are not told in pregame or given any signals during the game to:
a) start the clock on a snap
b) stop the clock after a touchdown or field goal good signal
c) stop the clock when a safety signal is given
d) stop the clock when an incomplete pass is signaled
e) stop the clock on a field goal no good signal
f) are confused when a roll the clock, then stop the clock signal are given for a first-down inbounds.
The clock operator needs to use common sense and understand the rules of football. For example, I've NEVER seen a wind-clock signal on a play where a kickoff is touched in the air by the receivers, then the receiver is taken out by the defense causing a loose ball. The covering official has too much on his plate following the muff if there are players everywhere. The clock operator should know to start the clock then.
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EXACTLY!
Clock operators are not told in pregame or given any signals during the game to:
a) start the clock on a snap
b) stop the clock after a touchdown or field goal good signal
c) stop the clock when a safety signal is given
d) stop the clock when an incomplete pass is signaled
e) stop the clock on a field goal no good signal
f) are confused when a roll the clock, then stop the clock signal are given for a first-down inbounds.
The clock operator needs to use common sense and understand the rules of football. For example, I've NEVER seen a wind-clock signal on a play where a kickoff is touched in the air by the receivers, then the receiver is taken out by the defense causing a loose ball. The covering official has too much on his plate following the muff if there are players everywhere. The clock operator should know to start the clock then.
Do ECOs get any kind of instruction in your associations? It may not happen in pre-game, but ours have to go through a class and pass a test before they are allowed to run clock on a Varsity game. So for, a, b, c & e, yes, they are told when to start the clock.
For d, our association teaches that the incomplete pass signal is always followed by the signal to stop the clock. I thought that was standard mechanics, but I could be wrong.
They are also told about f as part of the instruction, so while there may be a moment of confusion. they are still taught to kill the clock. (And start it again when the R winds it.)
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In my 40+ years I've found most clock operators who are NOT officials have a pretty good grasp of the rules since they generally run the clock week to week. The experience is not lacking. What is lacking is their lack of paying attention to the game. The less diligent ones tend to be more of a fan watching the game as opposed to being an official working the game.
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Perhaps some of those field officials, who have never been inside a "booth", might benefit from some generic considerations most ECOs have little, if any, control over.
At the HS level, in general, no two booths are identical:
a. there is a variety of controllers, some older, some newer and like opinions, each is a little different.
b. some offer unobstructed glass walls, MOST have windows, that come with pillars, some a lot wider than others, that create temporary blind spots that need to be "worked around".
c. field lighting is unique to each site, some are great, most suck(at the HS level).
d. Many are high enough above the crowd, to avoid fan obstruction, many are not. For reasons known only to God, fans on the top row ALWAYS stand, if it's raining they ALL come with umbrellas.
e. Many booths get crowded (authorized/unauthorized) people, that can cause (momentary) distractions, that ONLY happen at the worst times.
f. Every now and then, clocks, or controllers, decided to act on their own (running your own back-up clock is a sound idea).
g. Coaches in the booth ask as many stupid questions as coaches on the sideline.
h. Wing officials, under 7'2" tall, get lost from sight, intermittently on the far sideline in front of the team box and are TOTALLY INVISIBLE on most near sideline team box areas, rendering most, if not all, incomplete pass signals given below the shoulders - invisible (SO IMPORTANT for middle field officials to relay Signal 3 and other relevant signals along both sidelines).
i. Time Out signalling, please don't be subtle, or stand on the sideline. Make your signal a "Big Deal" while moving away from sideline or players. Look at the clock as you signal. (REMEMBER: neither coaches nor players can ever CALL Time Out, they can REQUEST that YOU call Time Out, so it starts when YOU signal, not when THEY request (or started thinking about requesting).
j. Just as "Football is a game of inches" is a misunderstood myth, so is precision to the 1/10th of seconds.
All ECOs in Alabama are registered officials and members of a local association. I cannot speak for every association in Alabama, but our varsity ECOs generally fall into two categories, rookies who have been trained to operate a clock and are learning to work the field or veteran officials who are no longer physically able to regularly work the field.
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Perhaps you need to observe more kickoffs, or signal that the kick has been touched quicker. Balancing whatever might be "on our plate" is a challenge we all face, regardless of which plate we're dealing with.
A qualified Timer should be totally familiar and, at least as competent, in all the game rules as other members of the crew working the contest. Like each other member of that crew, the timing function has it's own set of challenges that cooperation and consideration from crewmates can minimize and help produce a better overall performance.
Believe it, or not, unexplained momentary lapses can haunt officials both on the field, as well as in the booth, but should be exceedingly rare and can usually be, best, further minimized by a cooperative, and supportive, corrective effort. Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment and game action, occasionally field signals may not be as clear, consistent, or correct as normal and the experience of the Timer, hopefully, dictates accurate comprehension of the situation and can avoid unnecessary confusion.
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Do we have that in the mechanics manual?
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Yes, in the section titled "Stopping, Starting and Winding the Clock" (I know starting and winding are probably synonymous but I didn't write it).
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Last nights game we ran into this scenario. 10 seconds left in the half. A throws an incomplete pass 20 yards down field and the clock stops at 7 seconds which I don't really believe but I'm just the umpire and earlier it took a good clock operator 2 minutes to add 10 seconds to a neutral sight clock they were not familiar with. So with 7 seconds we have a field goal. The ball is kicked from about thirty yards out. The BJ and HL agree with the whole "Good Good - Step - Go Up" beautifully done if I might add. And the play that should take about 4 seconds, takes 7. One team is running off the field happy and the other is a little dismayed at us and the clock operator. I know the ball is dead when it crosses the plain of the goal line. At that point should there be a whistle? Does the signal stop the clock? What is the correct mechanic for someone too lazy to look it up?
Just for clarification, if the previous play was a 20yd pass play, how did they kick a 30yd field goal the next play? for that to have happened, the ball had to have been snapped from the 13yd line? Was it placed on the 30? If so, that's a 40yd kick...
Plus, did we ever answer the question? When SHOULD the clock stop?
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Yes, in the section titled "Stopping, Starting and Winding the Clock" (I know starting and winding are probably synonymous but I didn't write it).
Doesn't address the ECO. Only gives mechanics for the on-field officials in communicating clock status. The ECO can still see the field and start and stop the clock when required prior to any signals. We have a rulebook that addresses clock/time directly.
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Doesn't address the ECO. Only gives mechanics for the on-field officials in communicating clock status. The ECO can still see the field and start and stop the clock when required prior to any signals. We have a rulebook that addresses clock/time directly.
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It states who stops the clock, "the covering official", not the ECO. This is supported by the ECO instructions that are specified as a duty of the referee.
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It states who COMMUNICATES THE STOPPING OF the clock, "the covering official", not the ECO. This is supported by the ECO instructions that are specified as a duty of the referee.
Fify
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I think most officials here will agree that the official on the field is responsible for communicating to the ECO what to do with the clock. The ECO is not independent of the official on the field. He follows the direction of those on the field based on the signals he receives. Agreed?
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When the clock SHOULD be stopped is when it crosses the goal line if untouched.
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Sorry to confuse a few of you. How can you throw a twenty yard pass from the thirteen yard line? The end-zones I work are ten yards deep and we're talking about the amount of time it takes to snap and then throw the ball twenty yards... I saw the BJ and HL signals not from the umpire position but from my recliner the next day. If you need directions on how to record a football game I'm sure there is another form for that.
So I understand the the whole ball-breaks-the-plain timing rule. A good snap, hold, kick, from the 20 takes 3 seconds to reach the goal line. (It's called a DVR and a watch with a stopwatch feature) I didn't time it from the umpire position. If the kick is good I really have no problem ending the half. If the kick is no good, does the R team deserve a snap from the 20? I would say.... "Talk to the Back Judge!"
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Sorry to quibble over tenths (or maybe hundredths) of seconds, but the clock doesn't stop on a FG attempt when the ball breaks the plane of the goal line. That's only true if the kick is NOT a scoring attempt or if the FG attempt hits the ground before it crosses the goal line. Otherwise, the clock stops after the score. See 4-2-2-d.
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Thanks for the correct answer FLAHL. The clock does not stop on a scoring kick (free or scrimmage) when it breaks the plane of the GL. The clock stops when the kick is good (the clock is stopped when indicated by the BJ/FJ stepping forward and signaling that the score by kick is good) or no good (when the BJ/FJ step forward and signal no score followed by the TO signal). If you blow the whistle and thereby kill the play when the ball the crosses the GL, then if the kick is touched by R and goes through the uprights or hits an upright and goes through the uprights, you have an IW.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't the ball become dead when it touches something behind the goal line or end line (definition of loose ball OOB)? So wouldn't the clock continue to run until the ball is grounded or hits something? Rule 4-2-2
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't the ball become dead when it touches something behind the goal line or end line (definition of loose ball OOB)? So wouldn't the clock continue to run until the ball is grounded or hits something? Rule 4-2-2
Not on a scoring play such as this.
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Not on a scoring play such as this.
Do you have a rule reference?
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Do you have a rule reference?
4-2-2-h
The ball becomes dead and the down is ended when any score occurs.
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The NFHS publishes instructions to clock operators and chain crews. We print those up and hand deliver them prior to their home openers. IMHO, these accomplish : (1) detailing what is expected from them and how to procede; (2) making them ,as axillary officials, feel part on the game's crew.
Usually the clock operators sit in the press box.....
Usually the press box is at midfield.....
Usually it is a challenge to tell if the goal line plane is broken from midfield unless you are
either a coach or a mouthy fan......
NOTE - Instruction D5 reads : "The clock operator will automatically stop the clock following a touchdown, FIELD GOAL, TOUCHBACK or safety AFTER the APPORIATE scoring signal has been made."
^good ^no ^good ^no ^good ^no tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl
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The NFHS publishes instructions to clock operators and chain crews. We print those up and hand deliver them prior to their home openers.
You expect any clock operator to read those?
We're lucky to get a clock operator in the booth before the coin toss. Usually they arrive a minute before kickoff or we need to wait for them.
Many times, they don't understand how to operate the clock. We had a 12 HOUR game one time. The clock operator couldn't figure out how to take the clock off of 12:00:00 - so we had to play until 11:48:00 for the first two quarters until he figured it out at half time.
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Even with officials as ECOs, errors can occur. We had a spring game a couple of years ago, when we had the first major clock stoppage I looked at the clock and it read 12:51. As it turns out, the previous game in the stadium was a college bowl game. The 30+ year veteran, who was the ECO for the game, quickly realized what had happened and reset the clock to 9:51. The embarrassed veteran, you got it, it was me! (if we had a blushing emoticon it would go here)
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We had a 12 HOUR game one time.
Had just the opposite once. The first quarter ended during the opening kickoff return because the clock operator set the time for 10 seconds instead of 10 minutes in a JV game.
In our association, ECOs are part of the crew. They're usually first year guys or veterans who can't work on the field any longer. My sister-in-law has been our clock operator for 10 years. She's outstanding, and I really appreciate it every time I work with a bad ECO.
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4-2-2-h
The ball becomes dead and the down is ended when any score occurs.
Works for me. Thanks!
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Had just the opposite once. The first quarter ended during the opening kickoff return because the clock operator set the time for 10 seconds instead of 10 minutes in a JV game.
In our association, ECOs are part of the crew. They're usually first year guys or veterans who can't work on the field any longer. My sister-in-law has been our clock operator for 10 years. She's outstanding, and I really appreciate it every time I work with a bad ECO.
Do your Rs not check the clock before the RFP on the opening kickoff of each half or after a quarter change?
That's the one thing I make sure I do.
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Well, now I do. pi1eOn
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Do your Rs not check the clock before the RFP on the opening kickoff of each half or after a quarter change?
That's the one thing I make sure I do.
An excellent precaution to insure the clock is functioning for the start of the game. That's as far as that guarantee goes. Having a back-up clock, running simultaneously, extends protection.