Author Topic: snap or RFP - new rule thought  (Read 3604 times)

Offline ck4597

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snap or RFP - new rule thought
« on: October 23, 2017, 04:04:43 PM »
this come up during a post game beverage and we could not agree on answer...

2&8 A35 1:50 on clock 2nd quarter.  A 35 is tackled at A 38.  A 78 is called for holding during run.  After whistle B56 is called for late hit.  Who gets the clock option?


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 07:41:36 PM »
You didn't specify whether A was tackled in-bounds or OOB.  If the play ended in-bounds,  the clock would normally start, after enforcement, on the ready.  A would have the option of having the clock start on the snap.  If A declines to exercise the option leaving the clock to start on the RFP, and B's late hit penalty is accepted, NFHS 3-4-7, which allows an offended team, following an accepted penalty to elect to change the clock starting until the snap, would have that option.

If A was tackled OOB, the clock will start on the snap at the (ultimate) succeeding spot, so no clock option exists. 

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 08:05:16 PM »
Both teams are offended; both fouls are (presumably) enforced; both teams get the option. In practice, this almost certainly means that you're starting on the snap no matter what, except maybe at the end of a not-close game when both coaches just want to get off the field without injuries.

Offline Curious

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 10:44:14 AM »
Here is the question I posed to George Demetriou:

Inside 2 minutes in the 2nd and 4th quarters, assuming no major clock stoppage and that both fouls are accepted, if one tem fouls live ball and the opponent fouls dead ball, wouldn't the live ball foul take precedence for the purpose of choosing when the clock should start?

His reply:
 
It is not written anywhere (yet), but it makes perfect sense.
 
Thanks,
 

George

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 11:44:59 AM »
Have we gotten an official answer on this from Fed yet?

Because I was told originally that until we get further guidance that if both teams foul we should not apply the new rule at all.

Offline sir55

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 12:24:45 PM »
Since A fouled first (live ball), B would have the option. If they elected to start on the snap, A would have no option, because the rule does not allow to go from a stopped clock to a running clock. If B keeps the clock starting on RFP, then A would have a choice. If both fouls were live ball, nobody has a choice, they offset and clock is as it was at start of down.

Offline VA Official

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 12:49:42 PM »
... and clock is as it was at start of down.

The clock would start on the RFP or the snap depending on what occurred during the play, not based on the clock status at the start of the previous down.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 08:07:25 AM »
IMHO it's important to remember the original purpose of this rule.  When the rule was originally adopted it was clear in the explanation that it was intended to address the possible game clock advantage gained by the fouling team and to minimize that advantage by offering the RFP vs. snap game clock option.  In a case where we have already stopped the clock to enforce a penalty and there is an "after the whistle" DB foul, that DB foul has no effective game clock impact. 
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 08:29:22 AM »
^This is true. The situation would be more understandable at the end of a game. Let's say A is ahead by 2, it's 4th down, clock at :30, play clock at :02. A "false starts" to try and get another 25. For some reason, B takes offense at A and clocks the snapper. Dead ball foul. In this case I would assume we still ask B if he wants the clock to start on snap, right?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 09:17:55 AM »
A definition of bureaucratic excess, it can be worthwhile to consider, and avoid; "When common sense and practical application come in conflict with written directions, rather than reason the objective simply follow the instruction."

Offline Curious

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 03:23:51 PM »
^This is true. The situation would be more understandable at the end of a game. Let's say A is ahead by 2, it's 4th down, clock at :30, play clock at :02. A "false starts" to try and get another 25. For some reason, B takes offense at A and clocks the snapper. Dead ball foul. In this case I would assume we still ask B if he wants the clock to start on snap, right?

That's what I would do; and I believe that is EXACTLY the reason for the rule change  tiphat: While B's DBPF is dumb, it has nothing to do with the clock status when it occurred.

Offline VALJ

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 03:52:23 PM »
^This is true. The situation would be more understandable at the end of a game. Let's say A is ahead by 2, it's 4th down, clock at :30, play clock at :02. A "false starts" to try and get another 25. For some reason, B takes offense at A and clocks the snapper. Dead ball foul. In this case I would assume we still ask B if he wants the clock to start on snap, right?

Or, just apply 3-4-6 to start on the snap : When a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock started or stopped.

Offline VALJ

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 03:53:59 PM »
IMHO it's important to remember the original purpose of this rule.  When the rule was originally adopted it was clear in the explanation that it was intended to address the possible game clock advantage gained by the fouling team and to minimize that advantage by offering the RFP vs. snap game clock option.  In a case where we have already stopped the clock to enforce a penalty and there is an "after the whistle" DB foul, that DB foul has no effective game clock impact.

While I agree with you on the idea behind the rule, that's not what the rule says.  It doesn't specify a live ball foul, nor does it specify a foul that occurs where the clock would be running had the foul not occured.

I suspect this will get "corrected" in next year's book to be more in line with that idea.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 01:21:20 PM »
While I agree with you on the idea behind the rule, that's not what the rule says.  It doesn't specify a live ball foul, nor does it specify a foul that occurs where the clock would be running had the foul not occured.

I suspect this will get "corrected" in next year's book to be more in line with that idea.

Furthermore, the fix isn't as simple as specifying "live ball foul", because it *is* specifically designed to deal with things like false starts, which are dead ball fouls.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 01:58:51 PM »
The fix might be a bit wordy (but when is the rule book not wordy?), but it might be as simple as:

"If a live ball foul and dead ball foul (or live ball foul enforced as a dead ball foul) occur during the same interval, only the team offended by the live ball foul has the choice of whether to delay starting the clock to the snap" (Is interval the word I want? Time period between RFPs... whatever that is)

Furthermore, I'd probably also augment it that fouls that do not extend the period also don't get to change the clock status (those covered in 3-3-4b -- UNS, non-player, loss of down, enforced on kickoff or enforced as safety -- the last two wouldn't matter, since the clock doesn't start on the RFP after those fouls anyway). I'm willing to hear arguments why loss of down fouls shouldn't be in there though.

Offline Curious

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2017, 04:51:18 PM »
Here's my attempt at Rule Writing in an attempt to clarify this rule:

If, under 2 minutes remaining in the 2nd or 4th quarters, a foul occurs during the down and/or prior to the next RFP - the offended team is awarded the choice of starting the clock on the snap rather than the RFP assuming the clock was stopped only for the administration of the penalty.

If fouls by both teams occur during this same interval, the choice is awarded based on the following protocol: 
Double foul neither team gets choice
Live ball foul by A followed by dead ball foul* by B B gets choice
Live ball foul by B followed by dead ball foul* by A A gets choice
Double dead ball fouls** neither team gets choice
Equal number of 15 yd dead ball fouls - neither team gets choice
Unequal number of 15 yd dead ball fouls - opponent of the team committing the last dead ball foul gets choice

*Includes live ball fouls treated as dead ball fouls
**Regardless of whether the penalties are 5 or 15 yds


Also to answer NCWingman's "challenge", I would suggest the following:

1. Furthermore, I'd probably also augment it that fouls that do not extend the period also don't get to change the clock status (those covered in 3-3-4b -- UNS, non-player, loss of down, enforced on kickoff or enforced as safety -- the last two wouldn't matter, since the clock doesn't start on the RFP after those fouls anyway).         

I would argue that including specific fouls and excluding others is unnecessarily confusing. 

2.I 'm willing to hear arguments why loss of down fouls shouldn't be in there though.

If B trails, and A fouls for a completed illegal fwd pass, illegal touching of a completed fwd pass, illegal fwd handing, I would assume they (B) would want to keep the clock stopped.

GO AHEAD BOYS...HAVE AT IT  pi1eOn pi1eOn




Offline CalhounLJ

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snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2017, 06:05:59 PM »
Here's my attempt at Rule Writing in an attempt to clarify this rule:

If, under 2 minutes remaining in the 2nd or 4th quarters, a foul occurs during the down – and/or prior to the next RFP - the offended team is awarded the choice of starting the clock on the snap rather than the RFP assuming the clock was stopped only for the administration of the penalty.

If fouls by both teams occur during this same interval, the choice is awarded based on the following protocol: 
Double foul – neither team gets choice
Live ball foul by A followed by dead ball foul* by B – B gets choice
Live ball foul by B followed by dead ball foul* by A – A gets choice
Double dead ball fouls** – neither team gets choice
Equal number of 15 yd dead ball fouls - neither team gets choice
Unequal number of 15 yd dead ball fouls - opponent of the team committing the last dead ball foul gets choice

*Includes live ball fouls treated as dead ball fouls
**Regardless of whether the penalties are 5 or 15 yds

Also to answer NCWingman's "challenge", I would suggest the following:

1. Furthermore, I'd probably also augment it that fouls that do not extend the period also don't get to change the clock status (those covered in 3-3-4b -- UNS, non-player, loss of down, enforced on kickoff or enforced as safety -- the last two wouldn't matter, since the clock doesn't start on the RFP after those fouls anyway).         

I would argue that including specific fouls and excluding others is unnecessarily confusing. 

2.I 'm willing to hear arguments why loss of down fouls shouldn't be in there though.

If B trails, and A fouls for a completed illegal fwd pass, illegal touching of a completed fwd pass, illegal fwd handing, I would assume they (B) would want to keep the clock stopped.

GO AHEAD BOYS...HAVE AT IT  pi1eOn pi1eOn
If B trails and A is flagged for an illegal forward pass, A’s coach should be fired for stupidity. Just saying. If the situation were reversed, and A threw the IFP to stop the clock, B certainly wouldn’t want to choose the option, so that would be a moot point. However, I’m in agreement that pulling specific fouls out would muddy the situation. It’s my opinion the rule is pretty good as it stands, we just need clarification on a few scenarios.


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Offline SCHSref

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 08:32:56 PM »
I say A since A:s foul happened during the dead ball foul
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 06:37:38 AM »
From a practical standpoint:  If it's a close game under 2 minutes, and we have a LB/DB foul situation, the team who trails will want the clock held until the snap.

Does it really matter which team gets the first choice?

Offline CalhounLJ

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snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 06:41:58 AM »
No


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Offline Curious

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 12:29:17 PM »
From Calhoun: If B trails and A is flagged for an illegal forward pass, As coach should be fired for stupidity. Just saying. Agree; but, as we all know 17 or 18 yr old kids don't always follow directions well or forget where they are in certain situations.

If the situation were reversed, and A threw the IFP to stop the clock, B certainly wouldnt want to choose the option, so that would be a moot point. True if the pass were complete; but certainly, if incomplete, the officials would invoke 3-4-6  However, Im in agreement that pulling specific fouls out would muddy the situation. Its my opinion the rule is pretty good as it stands, we just need clarification on a few scenarios. That's really the point of my post


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 08:37:06 AM »
CLOCK RUNNING + UNDER 2:00, 2 or 4 QTR + PLAY THAT DOESN'T STOP CLOCK + LIVE BALL FOUL BY A + DEAD BALL FOUL BY B = B's choice to start on snap = IF they don't choose to, A can then choose. (interp from July meeting).

Double fouls or dueling dead ball fouls = same as regular timing.

The perceived fouls with our new rule occurring most often are encroachment and false start, both dead ball fouls.

This doesn't apply to running time (TIPS).

LOD fouls are treated the same.


Offline Curious

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 03:07:52 PM »
WOW!!! Where was this published?  Questions below

CLOCK RUNNING + UNDER 2:00, 2 or 4 QTR + PLAY THAT DOESN'T STOP CLOCK + LIVE BALL FOUL BY A + DEAD BALL FOUL BY B = B's choice to start on snap = IF they don't choose to, A can then choose. (interp from July meeting). Is the reverse the same (Live ball foul by B + DBF by A=A's choice?)

Double fouls or dueling dead ball fouls = same as regular timing. Just off-setting or unequal number?

The perceived fouls with our new rule occurring most often are encroachment and false start, both dead ball fouls.  Reality is more than this perception...

This doesn't apply to running time (TIPS). This makes sense!

LOD fouls are treated the same. Same as what?  Choice for "offended team"?


Offline VALJ

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 02:22:04 PM »
Furthermore, the fix isn't as simple as specifying "live ball foul", because it *is* specifically designed to deal with things like false starts, which are dead ball fouls.

Agreed.  I think the easy fix is to specify "a foul that occurs while the clock is not stopped" or some such. 

While I'm not one to bring up NCAA in this forum, how does the college book define when the "zap 10" occurs?  I know it only applies to fouls committed while the clock is running.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: snap or RFP - new rule thought
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2017, 05:26:54 PM »
The "zap 10" occurs during the last minute of the half when a foul causes the (running) clock to stop.

This include presnap fouls that prevent the ball from becoming live (false start, yes, illegal formation, no) and fouls like intentional grounding or an incomplete illegal forward pass that cause the ball to become dead and the clock to stop immediately.