Author Topic: Another free kick play  (Read 16548 times)

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Offline bbeagle

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2018, 09:31:24 AM »
2-24-4 states that 'A scrimmage kick is any kick from in or behind the neutral zone during a scrimmage down'.

I think I stopped reading there in determining that any striking of the ball with a foot denotes a scrimmage kick, including an illegal kick.

If I read further into 2-24-4 it says, 'Either a place kick, punt or drop kick mac be used.' This seems to imply that an illegal kick would not be a 'scrimmage kick'. Therefore, an illegal kick cannot be part of a 'scrimmage kick down'.

It's convoluted.

2-24-4 should read: 'A scrimmage kick is any LEGAL kick from in or behind the neutral zone during a scrimmage down. Legal kicks include a place kick, punt or drop kick. Any other kick is an illegal kick.'

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2018, 07:04:27 PM »

If I read further into 2-24-4 it says, 'Either a place kick, punt or drop kick mac be used.' This seems to imply that an illegal kick would not be a 'scrimmage kick'. Therefore, an illegal kick cannot be part of a 'scrimmage kick down'.

Although, clarity and brevity, are not necessarily required for NFHS rule descriptions, NFHS 2-24-9 clearly states, " An illegal kick is any intentional striking of the ball with the knee, lower leg or foot that does not comply with Articles 3 and 4 (definitions of Free-kick and scrimmage kicks) separating legal and illegal kicks.

Offline js in sc

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2018, 08:20:21 PM »
It may be a generalization to say "an illegal kick can not be part of a scrimmage kick down".  If the ball is legally kicked, blocked, and then illegally kicked during a scrimmage kick down, it is still a scrimmage kick down and the illegal kick is part of the scrimmage kick down.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Another free kick play
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2018, 08:51:35 PM »
I think we all would agree with that. Certainly a ball can be illegally kicked during a kicking down. However, illegally kicking a ball never causes a down to become a kicking down.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2018, 07:40:02 AM »
It may be a generalization to say "an illegal kick can not be part of a scrimmage kick down".  If the ball is legally kicked, blocked, and then illegally kicked during a scrimmage kick down, it is still a scrimmage kick down and the illegal kick is part of the scrimmage kick down.
Good point, I blew an option last year by not thinking this through.
 (1) 3 & 10 on K's 5;
 (2) K1 quick-kicks (punt) from K's EZ;
 (3) R1 is quicker and blocks punt;
 (4) K1's soccer skills return as he kicks bouncing ball in EZ;
 (5) K1's IK sails OOB @ K's 8;
 (6) ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag (5-man crew);
 (7) K's EZ foul = safety and off we went ^talk ^talk yEs:;

A few plays later my  tR:oLl brain cramp  tR:oLl disappeared.....

(1) I realized that the punt + block + bouncing + IK = IK OOB = punt OOB;
(2) A punt OOB becomes R's ball regardless of down;
(3) If R declined the penalty, it would have been their ball 1st & goal at K's 8 -depending on game situation - possibly a better choice than a safety.

I purchased the "groceries" for the journey home hEaDbAnG.

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Offline bbeagle

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2018, 08:00:02 AM »
It may be a generalization to say "an illegal kick can not be part of a scrimmage kick down".  If the ball is legally kicked, blocked, and then illegally kicked during a scrimmage kick down, it is still a scrimmage kick down and the illegal kick is part of the scrimmage kick down.

Maybe to clarify - If all kicks during a scrimmage down are illegal kicks, then it is not a scrimmage kick down. At least one legal kick, regardless of how many illegal kicks makes it by definition a scrimmage kick down.
 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2018, 09:01:24 AM »
Good point, I blew an option last year by not thinking this through.
 (1) 3 & 10 on K's 5;
 (2) K1 quick-kicks (punt) from K's EZ;
 (3) R1 is quicker and blocks punt;
 (4) K1's soccer skills return as he kicks bouncing ball in EZ;
 (5) K1's IK sails OOB @ K's 8;
 (6) ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag (5-man crew);
 (7) K's EZ foul = safety and off we went ^talk ^talk yEs:;

A few plays later my  tR:oLl brain cramp  tR:oLl disappeared.....

(1) I realized that the punt + block + bouncing + IK = IK OOB = punt OOB;
(2) A punt OOB becomes R's ball regardless of down;
(3) If R declined the penalty, it would have been their ball 1st & goal at K's 8 -depending on game situation - possibly a better choice than a safety.

I purchased the "groceries" for the journey home hEaDbAnG.

"JUST WHEN YOU THINK THAT YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, YOU FIND THAT YOU DON'T" -author unknown

 :( :o ??? ::) :-X :'( :!#


Great story Ralph. Now, in light of the new exception, could R take the ball at the oob AND add on a half-the-distance penalty for the illegal kick in the EZ?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2018, 09:03:33 AM »

"JUST WHEN YOU THINK THAT YOU KNOW EVERYTHING, YOU FIND THAT YOU DON'T" -author unknown

 :( :o ??? ::) :-X :'( :!#

[/quote]

Actually, I think my father originated this quote (or chose to forget where he heard it)

Offline SCline

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2018, 09:35:08 AM »
Great story Ralph. Now, in light of the new exception, could R take the ball at the oob AND add on a half-the-distance penalty for the illegal kick in the EZ?

I don’t believe so because the succeeding spot of the OOB spot is only set by declining the penalty. By rule accepting the penalty results in a safety.

I’ve changed my mind and believe that R would have the option to accept the penalty from the OOB spot as there are two “enforcement spots” available for this foul (8-5-2)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:17:39 AM by SCline »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2018, 09:55:17 AM »
That makes sense, but consider this: if this play happened in the field of play, there would still be two potential enforcement spots. We could enforce the penalty from the spot of the illegal kick, or we could go to the OOB spot and enforce it there. Declining to accept the penalty at the spot of the kick did not erase the option of accepting enforcement from the succeeding spot. Why is the spot in the endzone different? It seems to me we can choose to enforce the penalty from the spot of the kick (ez = safety) or where the ball went oob (succeeding spot.)


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2018, 10:02:30 AM »
Great story Ralph. Now, in light of the new exception, could R take the ball at the oob AND add on a half-the-distance penalty for the illegal kick in the EZ?
A very good point. IMHO, where there hadn't been a possession or change of possession after the legal kick, it would have remained "during the kick" when the IK went OOB. With our new ,spiffy tack-on option, IMHO, R could have taken the ball @ K's 4. IMHO, I'll wait for KWH (the rule's author) to chime in with his opinion.

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2018, 11:17:53 AM »
Question regarding fouls that are "simultaneous with the snap".

K 4th and 10 at K10 yard line.  K lines up in punt formation, but has only 6 players on LOS.  Ball is snapped and K gets off a legal punt.  R catches punt an R 45 yard line and is immediately tackled. 

Under last year's rules, if R accepts penalty, it will be K's ball 4th and 15 from K 5yard line.  If R declines penalty it will be R's ball at R 45 yard line.

Using the new rule the foul occurred "during a kick down"  and would meet the "tack on" criteria.  However, under the "during the kick" interpretation, it would not meet the "tack on" criteria.

Is this a correct interpretation or am I missing something?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2018, 01:11:24 PM »
Question regarding fouls that are "simultaneous with the snap".

K 4th and 10 at K10 yard line.  K lines up in punt formation, but has only 6 players on LOS.  Ball is snapped and K gets off a legal punt.  R catches punt an R 45 yard line and is immediately tackled. 

Under last year's rules, if R accepts penalty, it will be K's ball 4th and 15 from K 5yard line.  If R declines penalty it will be R's ball at R 45 yard line.

Using the new rule the foul occurred "during a kick down"  and would meet the "tack on" criteria.  However, under the "during the kick" interpretation, it would not meet the "tack on" criteria.

Is this a correct interpretation or am I missing something?

Pending some hopeful "official clarification" (or revised language) I'm focusing on the stated "Rationale" (2/8/18) announcing the revision of NFHS 6-1-9b to guide application, "In an effort to reduce re-kicks, further minimize risk and insure that appropriate penalties are in place for ALL fouls, the committee has added an option for fouls committed by K during free and scrimmage kicks.  The change would allow the receiving team all of the previous options as well as accepting the distance penalty from the end of the down."

Hopefully that will not hamper my persistent, but ever elusive, pursuit of working that 1st perfect game.









« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 01:28:55 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline VA Official

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2018, 01:11:43 PM »
Question regarding fouls that are "simultaneous with the snap".

K 4th and 10 at K10 yard line.  K lines up in punt formation, but has only 6 players on LOS.  Ball is snapped and K gets off a legal punt.  R catches punt an R 45 yard line and is immediately tackled. 

Under last year's rules, if R accepts penalty, it will be K's ball 4th and 15 from K 5yard line.  If R declines penalty it will be R's ball at R 45 yard line.

Using the new rule the foul occurred "during a kick down"  and would meet the "tack on" criteria.  However, under the "during the kick" interpretation, it would not meet the "tack on" criteria.

Is this a correct interpretation or am I missing something?

Can't speak for the "during the kick" interpretation as that is something your individual state interpreter would have to answer. Some interpretations for "during the kick" that I've seen incorporate the time from the snap to the kick (in addition to during the kick), while others may not. For the existing rule as written, fouls simultaneous with the snap meet the requirements for tack-on enforcement as long as K is not next to put the ball in play.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2018, 02:57:47 PM »
Let me remind everyone that all action, including the snap, is part of the loose ball play we are calling the kick. So the answer is yes this simultaneous with the snap foul is included in the exception. As a matter of fact, this is one of the main situations the exception was implemented for. Instead of having to go back and rekick we just tack 5 onto succeeding spot and move on


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Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2018, 03:56:08 PM »
Thank you Al, VA and Calhoun!

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2018, 09:57:02 AM »
Wisconsin governing body has just informed us that we are to use "during the kick" and not "during a kick down".

Makes sense to me.

Offline Badger1

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2018, 02:18:01 PM »
Prab,
Does that mean that a hold by K prior to a punt is then not subject to the new rule and is only enforced back at the spot of the foul and cannot be added to the succeeding spot?

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2018, 03:17:46 PM »
Wisconsin governing body has just informed us that we are to use "during the kick" and not "during a kick down".

Makes sense to me.

That makes no sense for an illegal formation by the offense on a 4th down punt.

This should be a 5 yard tack-on. This is the type of play this rule is meant to address, and not have a re-kick.

Offline VA Official

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2018, 03:32:13 PM »
Wisconsin governing body has just informed us that we are to use "during the kick" and not "during a kick down".

Makes sense to me.

Does this include action prior to the kick as well? (Illegal formation, motion, etc.) If not, this interpretation defeats the entire purpose of the rule; to minimize the number of re-kicks.

Offline Badger1

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2018, 03:57:43 PM »
This is the email officials have received today from our state association:

We’ve received several rule questions on the new rule addressing free and scrimmage kicks.

Q:  6-1-9b (NEW), 6-1-9b PENALTY (NEW), 10-4-2 EXCEPTION (NEW), 10-5-1j (NEW): New penalty option adopted for fouls by kicking team.

Rationale: In an effort to reduce re-kicks, further minimize risk and ensure that appropriate penalties are in place for all fouls, the committee has added an option for fouls committed by the kicking team during free and scrimmage kicks. The change would allow the receiving team all of the previous options as well as accepting the distance penalty at the end of the down.

However, when the rule book was published 10-4-2 EXCEPTION was changed to during a free or scrimmage kick down.

There is a significant difference between the two phrases. During the kick down includes activity after the kick has ended. I think that they meant to say during the kick, but that is not how it is now written. 

Q:  4th down, K punts but commits an illegal formation foul.  R returns the ball for a TD.  Under the existing enforcement for fouls during a scoring play, can R take the score and enforce the 5 yard penalty on the try?  Or is the phrase "during the down" significant in that the illegal formation actually happens prior to the down.  Since there is not necessarily "action" on an illegal formation foul. Say there is only 6 on the line and all are set. As in case book situation 7.2.1 B  I say 10-4-2a  previous spot if accepted. But other officials think it could be tacked on.

A:  The intent was “during the kick” not during the “kick down.”  The foul must occur during the kick. This foul occurs during the kick down so the new rule doesn't apply.  The foul must occur during the kick, not during the kick down as the rulebook states. A subtle but important distinction.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2018, 04:29:19 PM »
“During the kick” implies all action from snap until the kick ends. All the action included in the time frame between the snap and the the time the kick ends is included in the loose ball play we refer to as the kick. Any foul during that time period is subject to this exception, including fouls simultaneous with the snap.

For a free kick, the loose ball portion we call the kick begins with the kicking of the ball and ends when the kick ends. Any foul occurring during this time frame is included in the exception.

The way I understand it, the intention from the rules committee is that any foul occurring after the kick has ended is not to be included in this exception, nor is any dead ball foul such as encroachment, etc. to be included.


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« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 04:42:43 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline prab

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »
“During the kick” implies all action from snap until the kick ends. All the action included in the time frame between the snap and the the time the kick ends is included in the loose ball play we refer to as the kick. Any foul during that time period is subject to this exception, including fouls simultaneous with the snap.

For a free kick, the loose ball portion we call the kick begins with the kicking of the ball and ends when the kick becomes dead. Any foul occurring during this time frame is included in the exception.

The way I understand it, the intention from the rules committee is that any foul occurring after the kick has ended is not to be included in this exception, nor is any dead ball foul such as encroachment, etc. to be included.

+1     This makes perfect sense and I hope that the NFHS approves this interpretation of the new rule!


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Offline bossman72

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2018, 10:30:17 PM »
Anything by K that would have previous spot enforcement is eligible for the tack on.  That was the rule's intent.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Another free kick play
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2018, 06:51:56 AM »
That is the simplest, most concise explanation I have read on this subject.


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