Author Topic: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick  (Read 1488 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« on: August 30, 2021, 05:16:00 PM »
my questions are has this happened to any of you? 

1) Where after a fair catch (presumably of a punt) that R then attempts a field goal by free kick?

2)  Second, if this fair catch occurs and they are within reasonable distance especially if there was a penalty involved that might move the ball closer to K's goal line, are we out of line to tell our sideline coach that he has an option of free kick field goal?

3)  Who on that play has responsibility to determine on a kick that is short whether or not the ball has broken the plane of the goal line?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 05:30:06 PM »
Been a topic of discussion around here for years. Still on the bucket list


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 06:39:26 PM »
Been a topic of discussion around here for years. Still on the bucket list


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A careful review of NFHS: 6-5-4 a, b & c.  Table 6-4 (Freekick #2) advises, "Kick following a Fair Catch or awarded FC may score a field goal"

NFHS:6-5-4-c advises, "These choices (a, b & c, remain if a dead ball foul occurs prior to the next down, or a foul or an IW occurs during the next down and the down is replayed.  (EXAMPLE: FC or awarded FC at mid-field, A decides to run a play from scrimmage, A runner advances 5 yards & is tackled by the facemask. Penalty moves the ball to the B-30. (B is leading by 3, or less, points & only seconds remain).

A can choose to Free-Kick from the succeeding spot, in a standard FK formation as defined in NFHS: 6-1-1.

As for who is responsible for determining placement of officials and determination if the field goal attempt was successful, would likely depend on crew size and the judgment of the R.

Offline Logical

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2021, 09:19:45 PM »
my questions are has this happened to any of you? 

1) Where after a fair catch (presumably of a punt) that R then attempts a field goal by free kick?
Nope but there was one time that that should've been the play. My partners and I quickly discussed but turned out the coach didn't know about it. I knew the coach well and mentioned to him after game. If a similar situation presented itself in the future I'm sure he did; but as of the time I left the area, no luck.

2)  Second, if this fair catch occurs and they are within reasonable distance especially if there was a penalty involved that might move the ball closer to K's goal line, are we out of line to tell our sideline coach that he has an option of free kick field goal?
Yes; out of line. Do not coach a coach.

3)  Who on that play has responsibility to determine on a kick that is short whether or not the ball has broken the plane of the goal line?
I've heard differing views on this. Our 5-man crew would've used regular free kick mechanic with adjustments. BJ=K restraining; LJ=R restraining; HL=goal line; R/U under posts.

NFHS:6-5-4-c advises, "These choices (a, b & c, remain if a dead ball foul occurs prior to the next down, or a foul or an IW occurs during the next down and the down is replayed.  (EXAMPLE: FC or awarded FC at mid-field, A decides to run a play from scrimmage, A runner advances 5 yards & is tackled by the facemask. Penalty moves the ball to the B-30. (B is leading by 3, or less, points & only seconds remain).

A can choose to Free-Kick from the succeeding spot, in a standard FK formation as defined in NFHS: 6-1-1.
Excellent thing to point out.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2021, 09:28:09 PM »
3)  Who on that play has responsibility to determine on a kick that is short whether or not the ball has broken the plane of the goal line?

Our state has instructions for placement of officials in our Mechanics Manual.  You should refer to the mechanics manual from your state (if any) for the correct positioning. 

Offline bossman72

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2021, 11:54:48 PM »
My favorite video to show when this topic comes up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mMAnYyf8tc

Offline bossman72

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2021, 11:58:23 PM »
Our state has instructions for placement of officials in our Mechanics Manual.  You should refer to the mechanics manual from your state (if any) for the correct positioning. 

PA uses 6-man mechanics.  Our mechanics are basically you line up like a normal kickoff, but the R and U, who are normally in the middle of the field, are under the uprights.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2021, 05:16:31 AM »
Things to remember....
(1) Set the stakes to establish the free kick neutral zone;
(2) timing the same as other free kicks, if kick sails thru end zone clock doesn't move;
(3)R  & U under pipes and ready to call what you've never called before;
(4) pinch yourself to be sure you're not dreaming  :o !

When the return kick was removed from our code in 1965, the free kick> FG survived. While I fully agree that we shouldn't "coach" the coach, if he is the PAD (penalty advisor dude), I feel we should advise him if this option is still available after a penalty. Couple of examples :
(1)KCI  ^flag @ 50 advances ball to B's35 - "Coach, you will have the option of snapping the ball or free-kicking for a field goal".
(2) Fair catch @ 50, DPI on first play brings ball to B's 35- "Coach, you STILL have the option..."

IMHO, it's our job to give down & distance when discussing penalty options and this could be included.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2021, 05:20:12 AM »
Thanks for that Bossman!   tiphat:  Now I can say that I've "seen" it once!
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2021, 08:42:45 AM »

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2021, 08:59:33 AM »
Things to remember....
(1) Set the stakes to establish the free kick neutral zone;
(2) timing the same as other free kicks, if kick sails thru end zone clock doesn't move;
(3)R  & U under pipes and ready to call what you've never called before;
(4) pinch yourself to be sure you're not dreaming  :o !

When the return kick was removed from our code in 1965, the free kick> FG survived. While I fully agree that we shouldn't "coach" the coach, if he is the PAD (penalty advisor dude), I feel we should advise him if this option is still available after a penalty. Couple of examples :
(1)KCI  ^flag @ 50 advances ball to B's35 - "Coach, you will have the option of snapping the ball or free-kicking for a field goal".
(2) Fair catch @ 50, DPI on first play brings ball to B's 35- "Coach, you STILL have the option..."

IMHO, it's our job to give down & distance when discussing penalty options and this could be included.

you mean prior to 1965 a team could always free kick back any kick (scrimmage or free)??  That must be a rugby holdover.  Just thinking how interesting it would be to get ahold of a vintage rule book and actually play a game with the old rules.  I think the game might look very different.  Good stuff!!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2021, 09:26:48 AM »
As I understand, if you fielded a punt and didn't like what things looked like, you could punt or drop kick it back. In 1947 a drop kick via this method could score a field goal. I believe this still is a rule in the CFL and is used to prevent a rouge (1 point for what would be a touchback on a kick).

Offline Logical

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2021, 10:09:50 AM »
While I fully agree that we shouldn't "coach" the coach, if he is the PAD (penalty advisor dude), I feel we should advise him if this option is still available after a penalty. ...
IMHO, it's our job to give down & distance when discussing penalty options and this could be included.
Perhaps, but what if no foul.
Coaches expect us to know the rules; I expect the coaches to know the rules. A while back I had a coach of perennial nationally ranked team tell me that he hopes for the day that he can win a game on this rule. As with this coach, other coaches should know the option is available; not to be educated in real-time.
I believe we should inform coach where ball will be put in play, penalty or no, but not provide play options. A hint maybe: '1/10 @ ?? or Free Kick line @ ??'.

As I mentioned above, there was one time that my crew had a situation that made the FK/FG a good option. We had no foul on the play. During crew's brief discussion it was asked if we should inform coach. My immediate reaction was 'don't coach the coach'. Maybe I was more concerned since I knew the coach and did not want to display any bias; or perceived bias.


My favorite video to show when this topic comes up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mMAnYyf8tc
GREAT! Sounds like those announcers may be from the New England area ;-)

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2021, 10:17:37 AM »
Quote
I expect the coaches to know the rules.

Santa quit coming to visit, the Tooth Fairy isn't real, Kathy Ireland was never going out with me, and this is utter fantasy.
 ^no

Offline Logical

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2021, 10:34:52 AM »

Yeah; OK. My bad

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2021, 10:52:09 AM »
When we added the option of taking the yardage and the ball to KCI (an awarded fair catch), I discussed the free kick option at our annual meeting with the coaches. Most coaches knew it was available but none had ever tried it. None knew that the option was still available after a penalty acceptance. Where it is an extremely rare event - "the stars have to align"- late in a half + fair catch made + kicker that can reach the pipes = a chance for one's "bucket list"; I would advise the coach , if it involved a penalty decision, but not if it didn't. IF a free kick was chosen, I would advise R's coach of the procedure, as he could/would be confused  :o ??? ::) :-\ :!# pray:;

PS : The announcers in Bossman's video were not from my part of New England  ;D

Offline stevegarbs

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2021, 11:00:30 AM »
PA uses 6-man mechanics.  Our mechanics are basically you line up like a normal kickoff, but the R and U, who are normally in the middle of the field, are under the uprights.


Some of us may need closed captions on that one....

Offline dch

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2021, 11:24:40 AM »
I saw it twice in 38 years on the field.  Same team -- once a home game, once away.  Small town with a good program and (a great coach) back in the day.  The Athletic Director was an experienced member of our Football Officiating Association. 

Offline bossman72

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2021, 12:23:37 PM »

Some of us may need closed captions on that one....

Attached is a picture.  On normal kickoffs the U is next to the kicker and the R is on the goal line.  So we just take the two officials in the middle of the field and put them under the uprights.  Everyone else lines up the same way as a normal kickoff.

Offline stevegarbs

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2021, 02:32:21 PM »
Shoot, sorry, I meant to quote the YouTube video link. Not sure those announcers were speaking English...

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2021, 07:33:04 AM »
Add me to the list of those who dont coach the coach.  If I were feeding & housing my family by winning football games, Id dang sure have someone on my staff who knows the rules forward and backward.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2021, 08:06:08 AM »
We do not explain the choices after a fair catch.  Maybe we should ask them where they want to spot the ball, but we don't.

If there is a penalty, I would tell the coach his fair catch choices were still in effect.  If he asked me what that meant I would explain.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2021, 09:18:55 AM »
"If I were feeding & housing my family by winning football games, Id dang sure have someone on my staff who knows the rules forward and backward."

This aggravates me to no end. Every other teacher in the school system has to pass an exam to be able to teach. But not coaches... all they have to do is show up. All coaches should at least have to pass a test on the rules of the sport they are teaching/coaching...

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2021, 10:13:30 AM »
Add me to the list of those who dont coach the coach.  If I were feeding & housing my family by winning football games, Id dang sure have someone on my staff who knows the rules forward and backward.

it's true they might not know the rules but I'm thinking we should explain their options.  after considering the comments this is what I've decided I will do IF that situation every arises.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 10:17:51 AM by Derek Teigen »

Offline Covid 22

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Re: Field Goal Attempt by Free Kick
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2021, 11:41:50 AM »
Having not done NFHS rules in over 20 years, I have a couple of questions.

1) If I saw it right, the kicker can use a regular kick-off tee.   Correct?
2) If he pops it up and a R player fair catches it at the 5 yd line, where does the next series start?
3) If the kicker hits a line drive that bounces off of an up man and is recovered by a K 7 yards from the kick spot, is it 1 and 10 or 2 and 3?