Author Topic: scrimmage kick--fg attempt  (Read 2296 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2021, 08:57:36 AM »
Yes. Which is why succeeding spot language in the exception is so bad.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2021, 09:21:53 AM »
My argument in a nutshell:

The play in question: K misses a field goal on the last play of regulation in a tie game. K commits a live ball foul (illegal formation) on this play.

The enforcement: Using the 10-4-2 exception, R has three options: 1. Decline and go to overtime. 2. 5yd penalty from the previous spot, with a replay of the down.  3. Tack on 5yds at the succeeding spot.

The problem: The definition of succeeding spot in the rulebook is: ďThe spot where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.Ē In this particular situation, the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. Under no circumstances would the ball ever be snapped at the R20 after a missed field goal during the last play in regulation in a tied game if a foul does not occur. That spot would ALWAYS be the first play in overtime.

The other problem: 3-3 commands us to extend the period and play an untimed down on an accepted live ball foul by either team. We canít do that at the succeeding spot, because the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. So, we canít go to overtime.

Solution: To be able to apply 10-4-2 exception to this play: 1. The succeeding spot language would have to be removed and other language added (similar or identical to the suggestion by bossman).  2. Rule that the exception cannot apply because we canít end the period on an accepted foul, and to apply the exception we would have to end the period and go to the succeeding spot, which is the first play in overtime. So, in this situation, R would have to accept enforcement at previous spot or decline.

Online bossman72

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2021, 09:47:29 AM »
So, in this situation, R would have to accept enforcement at previous spot or decline.

In NCAA it's handled this way.
First, they don't allow tack-on penalties on field goals, so let's pretend this was a punt for a touchback. 
Their options would be to decline and go to OT, enforce 5 from previous and replay the down, or tack on 5 from the 20 and have 1st and 10 from the 25 with an untimed down, since it's an accepted live ball foul to extend the period.

This is one thing I don't like about the NFHS rule making process.  They copy a rule from NCAA but don't copy the rule book language just to be different... "because we're not NCAA".  They end up screwing it up and it takes 2 or 3 rule change cycles to correct it.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2021, 09:47:34 AM »
The way the rule is written one can argue in this case there is no succeeding spot.  For OT to be the succeeding spot, the 4th quarter has to have ended, which because of the foul it canít end by rule.  By the definition of succeeding spot if the foul had not occurred, the period would have ended.

I would say in this case the basic spot would move to the 20 and there would be an untamed down after enforcement, which I believe would comply with the spirit of the rule.

Look at 10.4.4 Situation B in case book.  They say basic spot is 20, as the 20 is succeeding spot on a touchback.  If this play happened on the last play of a tied game would it be the same dilemma?

My opinion is the foul, the way the current rules are written and by the spirit of the rule is to have an untimed down following enforcement from the 20.  I just canít get to an enforcement in OT as the period has not expired.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2021, 11:36:00 AM »
I agree.  This cannot go to OT since IMHO that clearly violates the requirement that the game cannot end until the live ball penalties have been completed.  I would focus on revising the language in definition of succeeding spot since the added language, again IMHO, simply does not belong there.
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Offline KWH

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2021, 07:38:58 PM »
So back to a previously discussed question.  Isn't it correct under NFHS rules to say that a half cannot end until all live ball fouls have been completed?

YES - NFHS Rule 3-3-3a
SEE everything that you CALL, but;
Don't CALL everything you SEE!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2021, 06:13:22 AM »
Yes. Which is why succeeding spot language in the exception is so bad.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2021, 09:59:59 AM »
IMHO, succeeding spot is often synonymous with end of run, such as when big ole' Bubba wanders out on the field to git a better look while the play is still going but doesn't participate. That is a live ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement which will probably be the end of the run - unless it was a loose ball play via definition. It which case the succeeding spot would also be also be the preceding spot. With the tack-on rule, end of run couldn't be used as there might not be any run, just the kick rolling dead. The location of the kick becoming dead would be the succeeding spot.

While there may be fly=poop in the pepper shaker, it still tastes good  eAt& on my 'tatters and greens :).

Offline CalhounLJ

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scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2021, 11:17:11 AM »
IMHO, succeeding spot is often synonymous with end of run, such as when big ole' Bubba wanders out on the field to git a better look while the play is still going but doesn't participate. That is a live ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement which will probably be the end of the run - unless it was a loose ball play via definition. It which case the succeeding spot would also be also be the preceding spot. With the tack-on rule, end of run couldn't be used as there might not be any run, just the kick rolling dead. The location of the kick becoming dead would be the succeeding spot.

While there may be fly=poop in the pepper shaker, it still tastes good  eAt& on my 'tatters and greens :).
Apply that same logic to a field goal that scores. If K kicks a field goal that ties the game on the last play of regulation, and R fouls, 8-4-3 states K can keep the score and have the penalty enforced at the succeeding spot. Where is that succeeding spot? At any other time in the game, the succeeding spot would be the kickoff, unless itís the last play of the half. but not in this situation. In this situation the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. Why? Because thatís the spot where the ball would next be put in play if no foul had occurred.

Which brings up another question. Why is it that on scoring plays we have no problem setting aside 3-3, but on the 10-4-2 exception itís forbidden? Itís still an accepted live ball foul. Other than just because?


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2021, 02:15:52 PM »
I think it comes down to spirit of the rule and philosophy.  On a made field goal, the philosophy is the foul to not go unpunished and the succeeding spot is clearly the next kickoff or OT.

With the play we are talking about, the spirit is to prevent a re-kick.  Also the 10-4-2 exception states when k will not be next to put the ball into play. We donít know that if we move to OT.

I totally get where you are coming from though, but I think that is why the difference on the thought process. 


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2021, 02:41:11 PM »
I agree with the philosophy and have no problem with the different enforcements. The issue is that at the present time we need two different definitions of succeeding spot to make it work.


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