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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: shont on October 20, 2018, 06:10:14 PM
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I have a question regarding the numbering exception. This is assuming A is in a scrimmage kick formation and it is 4th down. Can a player for A come in under the numbering exception rule and then be an eligible receiver during that down? For example #31 comes in for number 55 , can #31 then line up as an eligible receiver? A only has 4 people with lineman numbers.
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Yes, as long as he lines up as an end or a back.
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so it is the same as any other down and formation? Whoever is on the end and eligible number?
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Yes. The numbering exception allows A to have less than 5 on the line numbered 50-79. Those 5 are still indelible by position even though they may be wearing eligible numbers. The pass eligibility requirements are still intact.
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The numbering exception, strictly speaking, only refers to players who are not in eligible receiving positions. If a player with an eligible number is in an eligible position (back or end of the line), then by definition, he is not in the game under the numbering exception.
If A55 comes off and A31 comes on, one might assume that A31 is in the game under the numbering exception -- however, if A31 then lines up in the backfield and A88 lines up between the ends on the line, then A88 is the player in the game under the numbering exception. A88 is now in an ineligible position and is an ineligible receiver for that down.
Pass eligibility rules do not change based on the numbering exception -- eligible players must always be eligible by both number AND position.
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So when A is in kick formation with people in under the numbering exception, how do we officials know or identify the ineligibles? And how do we keep track of them if they shift around to different positions?
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Also if a player is using the numbering exception, once the center places his hand on the ball, that player is ineligible for the down so if he was covered and the end shifts on his side to make him an end he is not eligible for the down.
A88 A23 A25 A63 A55 A18 A86
A2 A7
Shift to the following
A23 A25 A63 A55 A18 A86 A7
A88 A2
A23 is not an eligible receiver because he was in using numbering exception as an ineligible.
Hope this formatted correctly on the phone
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Pabjnr, are you saying that once the center places his hands on the ball, that makes the center ineligible?
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Once the snapper touches the ball anyone using the numbering exception is ineligible for the down, there is a play in the casebook regarding this scenario.
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How do we know who is using the numbering exception, so we know who is ineligible for that down?
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The ones who took an initial position in a scrimmage kick formation inside the ends, and are wearing receiver numbers are the ones using the numbering exception.
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How do we know who is using the numbering exception, so we know who is ineligible for that down?
A word of advice - instead of focusing on the numbering exception, simply identify the ineligibles. On my crew, the Umpire mentally records the numbers of the snapper and two guards, I make a note of the tackles, and the wings have any others, if there are some.
Most of the time the punt formations we cover are traditional (7 on the line, 4 in the backfield), but sometimes we have seen 9 on the line with the punter and one more in the backfield...
The thing to remember is that the numbering exception was designed to allow K to replace either the snapper on 1,2,3 down, or all 5 big slow linemen on 4th down. So, essentially, the number exception only applies to 5 players. It's not necessary to identify them individually in regard to eligibility issues. The numbering exception simply keeps you from having to throw a flag for illegal numbering. What you have to pay attention to is the formation itself. That will tell you who is eligible and who is not.
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On PATs the guys under the uprights call out the numbers of the eligible receivers on their end of the line. That’s normally one end and one back. So they’ll say “I’ve got 88 and 22” or, if one of those players is ineligible by number, they’ll just say “I’ve got 85.” As R, I have the numbers of the kicker and holder. If we have a bad snap and a “fire” play, or a fake, that’s how we know who is eligible to be downfield or catch a pass.
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On PATs the guys under the uprights call out the numbers of the eligible receivers on their end of the line. That’s normally one end and one back. So they’ll say “I’ve got 88 and 22” or, if one of those players is ineligible by number, they’ll just say “I’ve got 85.” As R, I have the numbers of the kicker and holder. If we have a bad snap and a “fire” play, or a fake, that’s how we know who is eligible to be downfield or catch a pass.
This is exactly how we handle it. I'm on the right upright... "I've got 5 and 22 eligible."
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If A31 lines up in an initial eligible position, he isn't using the numbering exception.
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If A31 lines up in an initial eligible position, he isn't using the numbering exception.
True but he can become ineligible before the snap if he shifts into an ineligible position.
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This is exactly how we handle it. I'm on the right upright... "I've got 5 and 22 eligible."
Identifying the eligibles is not a bad idea. However, when a team uses the numbering exception, a much better practice is identifying the ineligibles, because of the "initial position" rule. If one of those 5 happen to shift into an eligible position, they are still ineligible because they took their initial position as ineligible. If you are only watching the eligibles, you may miss that. Once my umpire and I have identified the 5 ineligibles who have taken an initial position on the interior of the line, we know that no matter what else may happen, those 5 can't catch a pass..
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How about when teams use a muddle huddle for 2 pt conversions.
rule book says the numbering exception applies when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation. Scrimmage kick formation requires a player on a knee 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage.
So if Team A were to line up in a muddle huddle with a player under center or in shotgun, they must have five players numbered 50-79 in order to run a play (if they don't shift to a scrimmage kick formation)?
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That is correct. The numbering exception does not apply to a non-scrimmage kick formation. If they line up in such a formation and run a play from it they are guilty of illegal numbering.
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True but he can become ineligible before the snap if he shifts into an ineligible position.
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But that was not an "initial position between the ends" so this is not legally using the numbering exception either.
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I agree. I think the conversation may have evolved into two separate discussions. While interrelated somewhat, the numbering exception and eligible/ineligible discussions are also different.
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I have a question regarding the numbering exception. This is assuming A is in a scrimmage kick formation and it is 4th down. Can a player for A come in under the numbering exception rule and then be an eligible receiver during that down? For example #31 comes in for number 55 , can #31 then line up as an eligible receiver? A only has 4 people with lineman numbers.
Getting back to the basics, the answer to the question is no. A player using the numbering exception cannot be or become an eligible receiver. Thanks HLNC for pointing that out.
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Once the snapper touches the ball anyone using the numbering exception is ineligible for the down, there is a play in the casebook regarding this scenario.
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I have a question on this. The case that's referred to is 7-2-5-D. And it does refer to the snapper placing his hands on the ball. Does anyone know what the rule reference is in the NF rule book for this requirement? NCAA has it in there specifically but after looking it doesn’t seem to be as evident in the NF book.
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I imagine one of the rule writers would need to explain this to be accurate, but I'm assuming the snapper placing his hands on the ball indicates the time at which the "initial position" restriction begins.. Imagine a situation where A is trying to get players on, players off, they are all running around trying to get lined up. at what point do we determine a player has taken an initial position? Once he's in the formation and the snapper has placed his hands on the ball. Makes sense to me, but i could be wrong.
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Identifying the eligibles is not a bad idea. However, when a team uses the numbering exception, a much better practice is identifying the ineligibles, because of the "initial position" rule. If one of those 5 happen to shift into an eligible position, they are still ineligible because they took their initial position as ineligible. If you are only watching the eligibles, you may miss that. Once my umpire and I have identified the 5 ineligibles who have taken an initial position on the interior of the line, we know that no matter what else may happen, those 5 can't catch a pass..
Fair enough. In my limited experience (about 30 varsity games), I have yet to see anyone shift out of a scrimmage kick (FG) formation once there is a tee on the field. (A few muddles, but once they are in traditional kick formation, they stay generally stay there.) I only announce that once I'm under the upright. Then I know if someone other those catches a pass, he's ineligible. In a punt formation, I'm keeping an eye on my keys, of course, but paying more attention to ineligibles as well. Of course, I'm a wing and our umpire is watching other ineligibles on the interior.
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I would think it has to do with restrictions on the Neutral zone starting , but I’ve wondered that as well.
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How do we know who is using the numbering exception, so we know who is ineligible for that down?
Everyone's eligibility is determined by position on numbering exception formations. Numbers essentially don't matter.
Eligibility is determined by everyone's position at the time the center puts his hands on the ball. They are locked in as ineligible no matter where they end up shifting to.
You can also become ineligible by your initial position at the snap.
So in summary, once the numbering exception is established (center puts hands on the ball) you have to memorize the players that are lined up in ineligible positions at that time. Then at the snap, you have to memorize all of the players that are lined up in ineligible positions at that time too. Put those two sets of numbers together and all of those people are ineligible receivers for the down.
*Note: all of this only applies if you have less than 5 players numbered 50-79 on your line at the snap. If you have 5 players, it's just regular football.*
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And all of this makes no sense to me. Why not just allow backs & ends with eligible numbers at the snap to be eligible? That’s who the defense is used to covering anyway.
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And all of this makes no sense to me. Why not just allow backs & ends with eligible numbers at the snap to be eligible? That’s who the defense is used to covering anyway.
So they don't shift around to confuse who is eligible and who isn't. That's the whole point of why regular numbering is the way it is.
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So they don't shift around to confuse who is eligible and who isn't. That's the whole point of why regular numbering is the way it is.
I believe it's also why they now make a distinction between 4th down and other downs. It was in response to the school that was running the A11 offense.