Hurdling

[fudilligas]

the question has arisen where a coach wants a defensive player to get a running start and jump over the snapper in a scrimmage kick formation to get to the kicker....am I correct in explaining that "hurdling applies to all players, not just the ball carrier and the defensive player may not jump over or hurdle the snapper in this situation, even without making contact

[ncwingman]

Yes, possession of the ball is not a requirement for hurdling, but...

Hurdling is only a foul if the player being hurdled only has his feet on the ground (no hands, etc., touching). I've seen many a longsnapper drop to his hands after the snap (a four point stance, essentially). If the jump happened after this point, it would technically be legal.

If he wants his linebacker to get a running start, I don't think he'd be able to wait long enough.

[tim]

Unless a foot, both feet, or a knee are "foremost", it's just jumping.

[FLAHL]

If a defensive player attempts to leap, jump, or hurdle an offensive lineman and lands (or attempts to land) on his feet, I've got a foul every time. This is a safety issue and I'm not looking for technicalities regarding whether his foot, feet, or knees were foremost at any point. 

Note - I'm not talking about a player who goes straight up or goes head first over a pile.

[Ralph Damren]

HEAD FIRST = DIVING = O.K.

FEET FIRST = HURDLING = NOT O.K.color]

[jason]

Hurdling:
https://youtu.be/crgrGJHE0tE

Not hurdling:
https://youtu.be/G4GoBoY7DdA

Clear as mud.

[Ralph Damren]

Good post, Jason, while the dive in your video appears to be equally as dangerous as the hurdle; it would be hard to make illegal. Thinking of runners diving for the end zone, being an accepted part of the game and the diving, TD saving tackles; I'm unsure how we could ever outlaw a dive.

[Eastshire]

Hurdling:
https://youtu.be/crgrGJHE0tE

Not hurdling:
https://youtu.be/G4GoBoY7DdA

Clear as mud.

Are you trying to suggest that you don't see the difference between the action in the two videos?

[VALJ]

How about jumping the gap between the snapper and the man next to him?

[AlUpstateNY]

How about jumping the gap between the snapper and the man next to him?

Hurdling is defined very specifically in NFHS 2-22.  Of course, the covering official is responsible to determine if the action he is observing violates that description.  How precisely YOU, as the calling official, choose to parse that definition is YOUR exclusive responsibility, as you may likely be the only person observing it EXACTLY as you see it. 

[Rulesman]

How about jumping the gap between the snapper and the man next to him?

Not hurdling.

[CalhounLJ]

Unless a foot, both feet, or a knee are "foremost", it's just jumping.

this may be fly poop, but I'd like to see an example of jumping that does not include a foot, both feet or a knee that is foremost.

[Eastshire]

this may be fly poop, but I'd like to see an example of jumping that does not include a foot, both feet or a knee that is foremost.

Unless you're carving out diving as a separate category from jumping, the second video Jason posted is a good example of someone jumping that is not foot or knee foremost.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Hurdling:
https://youtu.be/crgrGJHE0tE

Not hurdling:
https://youtu.be/G4GoBoY7DdA

Clear as mud.

Disagree. I think these are textbook examples of what to flag for hurdling and what NOT to flag for hurdling.

If a defensive player attempts to leap, jump, or hurdle an offensive lineman and lands (or attempts to land) on his feet, I've got a foul every time. This is a safety issue and I'm not looking for technicalities regarding whether his foot, feet, or knees were foremost at any point.

I think this is a great way to look at it, except that I would apply it to ANY opponent. If you try to go over a standing opponent in a manner where you intent to land on your feet, it's hurdling.

... Actually, I can think of one exception.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqLmJ-lDHEQ

This is clearly headfirst, and thus not a foul. But I don't think too many HS players are going to be able to pull that off.

[tim]

'Hurdling' definition from the book of suggestions: "attempt by player to jump (hurdle) with one or both feet or knees foremost over an opponent who is contacting the ground with no part of his body except one or both feet". It's hard enough trying NOT to miss the calls I should be making, let alone throwing-legal by definition jumping 'safety sake'-flags. Reminds me of the time a player asked me, "Will you watch #55 ref?". My response:"Sure, pal. What's he doin' to ya?". Player's response:" HE'S BEING MEAN!".  Proper coaching and our ability to identify and prescribe penalty for fouls regarding safety are player deterrents. However, me throwing, or not throwing my flag on a certain play, has never determined whether or not the kid was injured on said play.

[tim]

If a defensive player attempts to leap, jump, or hurdle an offensive lineman and lands (or attempts to land) on his feet, I've got a foul every time. This is a safety issue and I'm not looking for technicalities regarding whether his foot, feet, or knees were foremost at any point. 

Note - I'm not talking about a player who goes straight up or goes head first over a pile.

'Hurdling' definition from the book of suggestions: "attempt by player to jump (hurdle) with one or both feet or knees foremost over an opponent who is contacting the ground with no part of his body except one or both feet". It's hard enough trying NOT to miss the calls I should be making, let alone throwing-legal by definition jumping 'safety sake'-flags. Reminds me of the time a player asked me, "Will you watch #55 ref?". My response:"Sure, pal. What's he doin' to ya?". Player's response:" HE'S BEING MEAN!".  Proper coaching and our ability to identify and prescribe penalty for fouls regarding safety are player deterrents. However, me throwing, or not throwing my flag on a certain play, has never determined whether or not the kid was injured on said play.

[jason]

Are you trying to suggest that you don't see the difference between the action in the two videos?

I sure stirred up a hornet's nest unintentionally with that "clear as mud" phrasing.  While clear as mud is literally taken as "uncertain," it's often used sarcastically in the south to mean "is this finally broken down sufficiently so that it can be understood?"  It's kind of like "bless your heart," when that is obviously not the intention.

The two video links I posted are definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum.  The first is a foul in NFHS.  The second is not.

[prab]

Would like some help here.  Could someone who works both NFHS and NCAA games tell me if the NCAA hurdling rule is the same as the NFHS rule?

I realize that this is an NFHS forum, but I don't think that this strays too far away.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Would like some help here.  Could someone who works both NFHS and NCAA games tell me if the NCAA hurdling rule is the same as the NFHS rule?

NCAA - from rule 2 definitions:  SECTION 15. Hurdling
ARTICLE 1. a. Hurdling is an attempt by a player to jump with one or both feet or knees foremost over an opponent who is still on his feet (Rule 9-1-13).
b. “On his feet’’ means that no part of the opponent’s body other than one or both feet is in contact with the ground.

And Rule 9-1-13 Hurdling
ARTICLE 13. There shall be no hurdling (Exception: The ball carrier may hurdle an opponent).

My understanding is that the rule is intended to prevent the possibility of a player getting kneed or kicked in the head.  Especially vulnerable would be linemen just after the snap as they start up out of a three point stance.  And I agree with Rulesman - you can have an action that looks like hurdling, but if it's in a gap (not over an opponent) then it's not a foul.  Again, the rule is designed to avoid a player getting kneed or kicked in the head.

[prab]

Thanks NVFOA!  The exception for the ball carrier makes the NCAA rule significantly different than the NFHS rule.

[ncwingman]

This is now wandering into more of an NCAA question, but since the ball carrier is allowed to hurdle an opponent, if he were to attempt to hurdle an opponent who was being blocked by a teammate (i.e., hurdling the pair of players) -- that would actually be a foul since the ball carrier would be hurdling a teammate as well?

Feel free to file the answer to this under "Things that will never actually happen"

[NVFOA_Ump]

-- that would actually be a foul since the ball carrier would be hurdling a teammate as well?

Answer is in the definition. 

[ncwingman]

Answer is in the definition.

The million dollar question -- would it be flagged?