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71
National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch
« Last post by Derek Teigen on April 03, 2024, 05:48:17 PM »
Before each punt I will remind myself that ANY valid fair catch prevents ANY team from advancing the ball once the ball has been possessed and that we will blow the play dead when anybody gains possession.
72
NCAA Discussion / Another 'trick' play involving a possible punt
« Last post by ElvisLives on April 03, 2024, 03:03:23 PM »
See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Phz26BGxI

(But don't pay any attention to the audio.)

OK, this is actually an NFHS contest, but this is worthy of discussion for NCAA. This is not a question of formation or eligibility, but, rather a possible violation of 7-3-8-c-4 (a pass thrown to simulate a kick, for either a completion, or, more likely, to induce a defensive pass interference foul). And maybe some other situations, as well.

On 4th/6, A-47, 6:03 (2), Team A snaps from a scrimmage kick formation. Almost immediately after receiving the snap, apparent punter A30 takes one step forward while changing to a throwing posture, and then takes a second step as he throws the ball downfield, toward A25 (who had run straight downfield from his backfield position at the snap). The pass has a clear ‘arcing’ trajectory, and is intercepted by B24 well downfield. A fraction of a second after the pass was released by A30, A25 was blocked to the ground by B2, beyond the NZ.

The issue is whether or not this constituted a 7-3-8-c-4 condition, which provides an exception to defensive pass interference rules, when Team A deceives Team B by making a pass that simulates a scrimmage kick, in hopes of either completing the pass for a first down, OR, more likely, inducing a defensive pass interference foul. In this case, the ball was clearly thrown with an arcing trajectory, more so than a routine pass.  Running directly down the field, A25 was not running a ‘pattern,’ to move to a clear area of the field.

We could argue that B2 saw the passer moving into a passing posture, and then saw A25 running downfield, and ‘read’ pass and ‘chose’ to block A25, to take him out of the play. On the other hand, one could argue that Team A purposely attempted to deceive Team B with a pass that appeared to be a kick.

The big problem is that we don’t have a really good idea from the rules, or the Rules Committee, as to what constitutes “…high and deep…” for this rule. Does the pass need to be at least as high above the ground as the distance it travels downfield? (How would we measure that?) Does it need to travel at least 40 yards downfield?

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that Team A wasn’t necessarily trying to complete this pass, even though the pass was not thrown really high. I believe the pass would have been well overthrown, had A25 not been blocked to the ground. I believe Team A was consciously attempting to draw a DPI foul. I would support a no-call for DPI. And then I would look a little more closely at the block by B2 on A25 as being a blind-side block.  And, I would look more closely at the block by B13 on A51 during the return; right hand clearly in the middle of the number, and the force of the block pushed A51 right by the BC as he was going by.

Discussion?
73
NCAA Discussion / 'Trick' plays involving punts
« Last post by ElvisLives on April 02, 2024, 04:31:44 PM »
https://twitter.com/i/status/1774487979500691879

Copy/paste the address above to see a recent UFL play. Of course, they have very different rules, so it is worth reviewing NCAA rules to be sure we understand how to officiate the same type of plays, should we see them.

In the example, by NCAA rules, Team A started in a Scrimmage Kick Formation (SKF), with a holder within 7 yards of the Team A's line of scrimmage, and a player in position to ostensibly kick the ball, and nobody in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap. At that moment, had they snapped from that formation, they would have been allowed numbering exceptions. However, they did not have any numbering exceptions. Here is the formation (47 is the snapper):

Initial formation (SKF)
      55 67 75 47 71 79 88
     91                          45


                       4

                  19

Shift and motion, then snap
              55 67 75 47 71 79 88
            19                           45
91----------------------------------->


                             4

Team A has 5 linemen number 50-79, so no numbering exceptions.
Number 4 is only 7 yards behind the NZ, so NOT a SKF.

This is now just a somewhat 'normal' formation. Just that 55 is NOT eligible, even though he is the left end. Number 47 (snapper) is not eligible, since he is an interior lineman.
So, for NCAA, we'd have illegal touching. 5 yards from the previous spot, plus LOD.
55 didn't impede/restrict any defensive player trying to catch the pass, so no OPI.

Some NCAA coach will see this UFL play and think they can do this, too. No, Coach. You can't.





   
 
74
National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics
« Last post by Etref on March 31, 2024, 05:54:47 PM »
My standard was this,

Do you want your option this half or in the second half?
75
General Discussion / Re: HAPPY EASTER, ALL
« Last post by bama_stripes on March 31, 2024, 08:37:14 AM »
👍👍
76
National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics
« Last post by bama_stripes on March 31, 2024, 08:34:31 AM »
Another good one is on the coin toss, always ask if they want to D-E-F-E-R first. Asking : "Kick, recieve, defend a goal or defer" can cause some kids to say :"Yea, we'll kickoff" when told by coach to ask to defer.

Our SOP is to ask the head coach during the pre-game visit what he wants to do if he wins the toss.  We then confirm that with the speaking captain before walking to midfield for the toss.  After the toss, we always give that choice to the winning captain first.
77
General Discussion / Re: HAPPY EASTER, ALL
« Last post by Etref on March 31, 2024, 08:06:45 AM »
Yes, have a blessed day
78
National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 07:45:10 AM »
2-14-2a deals with place kicks and requires a holder with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the LOS and a kicker 3 yards or less behind him.

2-14-2b deals with punts where the punter must be at lease 10 behind the LOS AND READY TO GET THE LONG SNAP.

On place kicks the kicker isn't in position to get the long snap. The rewritten SKF rule was to prevent AXI , my proposal- only if a scrimmage kick is apparent can the numbering exception be used -was much simpler.
79
National Federation Discussion / Re: Holder question
« Last post by NVFOA_Ump on March 31, 2024, 07:26:09 AM »
The holder is still the holdert and can be roughed, BUT if a knee isn't touching earth it isn't SKF. If in pre-game meeting, coach informs of a trick play from the holder in a 'catcher's crouch'  then inform him that there will be no snapper protection @ & numbering exception. This will usually kill the use of such. Remember:
 (1) To be in SKF,. the punter  needs to be 10 yards behind LOS;


I believe that we've discussed this before but let's refresh some memories.  In almost all "kick" formations there is at least one player, the "kicker", 10 yards behind the LOS. This is virtually always true whether there is a "holder" between the snapper and the "kicker" or not.  So in terms of a 4th down play with a "kicker" 10 yards behind the LOS doesn't by definition any combination of these formations qualify as a SKF?
So shouldn't (1) actually read "To be in SKF, the KICKER needs to be at least 10 yards behind the LOS".?
80
General Discussion / HAPPY EASTER, ALL
« Last post by Ralph Damren on March 31, 2024, 06:35:30 AM »
Wishing all a happy Easter. If it's rejoycing in church,  enjoying a family dinner, or calling a loved one, try to make today special.
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