Author Topic: Illegal Participation Enforcement  (Read 1992 times)

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Offline Mad Mike

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Illegal Participation Enforcement
« on: November 10, 2023, 04:09:20 PM »
A snaps the ball at their own 40 yd. line. QB scrambles in the pocket momentarily. Meanwhile, A1 runs a route along the sideline. He steps out of bounds on his own at the B 30 and returns in bounds at the B 28 where he catches the pass thrown to him.

As I read the NFHS Casebook, a similar play in SIT 9.6.1A indicates we would enforce this from the spot of the foul-which is where he returns in bounds (B 28). Some other guys in our association indicate because this is a loose ball foul, we are going to penalize it from the previous spot as the offense should not benefit from any positive yardage when they fouled during the down.

How would you enforce it and why?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2023, 09:40:15 PM »
A snaps the ball at their own 40 yd. line. QB scrambles in the pocket momentarily. Meanwhile, A1 runs a route along the sideline. He steps out of bounds on his own at the B 30 and returns in bounds at the B 28 where he catches the pass thrown to him.

As I read the NFHS Casebook, a similar play in SIT 9.6.1A indicates we would enforce this from the spot of the foul-which is where he returns in bounds (B 28). Some other guys in our association indicate because this is a loose ball foul, we are going to penalize it from the previous spot as the offense should not benefit from any positive yardage when they fouled during the down.

How would you enforce it and why?

9.6.1a doesn't indicate the spot of the foul is the spot of enforcement. It simply states the spot of the foul is the spot where A returns inbounds, which is correct. The other guys in your association are right. This is a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2023, 07:01:38 AM »
Remember,guys, it's never a foul to go OOB, it's just a foul when you come back in.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2023, 07:12:49 AM »
Remember,guys, it's never a foul to go OOB, it's just a foul when you come back in.
Wouldn't this be Illegal Touching as well?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2023, 07:51:37 AM »
Wouldn't this be Illegal Touching as well?

This is a common misconception.  Illegal Touching refers to touching by an ineligible A player (7-5-13).  Going OOB and returning doesn’t change the eligibility status of a player.(7-5-6d).  It’s still a foul, but there’s a big difference in the penalty for each.

Now, if A1 had been covered up at the snap, you’d have both fouls.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2023, 08:04:27 AM »
This is a common misconception.  Illegal Touching refers to touching by an ineligible A player (7-5-13).  Going OOB and returning doesn’t change the eligibility status of a player.(7-5-6d).  It’s still a foul, but there’s a big difference in the penalty for each.

Now, if A1 had been covered up at the snap, you’d have both fouls.

Great point. I'm not sure, but I think the college rule makes it illegal touching if the player is the first to touch the pass after coming back in. Just going out and back in is not a foul.

It's different in NFHS. We have a fundamental that states a player who is eligible at the beginning of the down remains eligible throughout the down, so there's nothing, including stepping out and returning, that makes him ineligible. The only foul we have is IP. So, to sum it up, he's an eligible player who is participating in an illegal way.

Offline Fatso

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2023, 09:40:23 AM »
Going OOB and returning doesn’t change the eligibility status of a player.(7-5-6d).  It’s still a foul, but there’s a big difference in the penalty for each.
Thanks.  So the IP is 15 yard variety?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2023, 09:44:08 AM »
Thanks.  So the IP is 15 yard variety?


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Offline Fatso

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2023, 09:49:36 AM »

Offline Ia-Ref

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2023, 12:07:14 PM »
A penalty that does not fit the offense if the act was accidental.
Change is needed.  Please!!
"Because you can referee wrong, make a mistake, but what you can not do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules."   Dutch legend (soccer coach) Johan Cruyff

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2023, 02:33:10 PM »
A penalty that does not fit the offense if the act was accidental.
Change is needed.  Please!!
Agree. NFHS should adopt the NCAA rule. But don't hold your breath.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2023, 03:07:04 PM »
A penalty that does not fit the offense if the act was accidental.
Change is needed.  Please!!


But that goes back to the question that then crops up, how do we decide if it was "accidental"?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2023, 09:38:49 AM »
This is a common misconception.  Illegal Touching refers to touching by an ineligible A player (7-5-13).  Going OOB and returning doesn’t change the eligibility status of a player.(7-5-6d).  It’s still a foul, but there’s a big difference in the penalty for each.

Now, if A1 had been covered up at the snap, you’d have both fouls.
If A had been covered @ snap = multiple fouls =B coach's choice = 5 & down counts or 15 & replay down. Don't just assume he wants the 15.

Offline KWH

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Re: Illegal Participation Enforcement
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2023, 12:11:56 PM »
9.6.1a doesn't indicate the spot of the foul is the spot of enforcement. It simply states the spot of the foul is the spot where A returns inbounds, which is correct. The other guys in your association are right. This is a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement.

Agree with CalhounLJ - This is a common misunderstanding, but, this foul occurs during a loose ball play
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 12:14:07 PM by KWH »
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