Author Topic: Substitute  (Read 1358 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Substitute
« on: November 11, 2023, 07:50:41 AM »
1st year wing official asked this question at our meeting Wednesday night.  The question generated significant discussion and difference of opinion as to the correct call.


Team A is in formation and getting ready to snap and the snapper has his hands on the ball, coach A realizes that there's only 10 in the formation.  Incoming substitute for A, the wide receiver on A's side, is still on the B side of the NZ and outside the 9's when A snaps the ball.  What do we have?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2023, 09:06:46 AM »
1st year wing official asked this question at our meeting Wednesday night.  The question generated significant discussion and difference of opinion as to the correct call.


Team A is in formation and getting ready to snap and the snapper has his hands on the ball, coach A realizes that there's only 10 in the formation.  Incoming substitute for A, the wide receiver on A's side, is still on the B side of the NZ and outside the 9's when A snaps the ball.  What do we have?

Illegal substitution if he doesn't participate. 3-7-5.

The section on encroachment doesn't apply, because it's about a player entering the neutral zone. This incoming substitute never became a player, but he was trying to make a substitution. He never made it to his side of the neutral zone.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2023, 09:26:26 AM »
Illegal substitution if he doesn't participate. 3-7-5.

The section on encroachment doesn't apply, because it's about a player entering the neutral zone. This incoming substitute never became a player, but he was trying to make a substitution. He never made it to his side of the neutral zone.


So per 3-7-5 we have a live ball Illegal Substitution foul and if he actually participates then he triggers the 3-7-4 note and also gets a 9-6 Illegal Participation foul?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2023, 09:29:11 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2023, 09:30:16 AM »

So per 3-7-5 we have a live ball Illegal Substitution foul and if he actually participates then he triggers the 3-7-4 note and also gets a 9-6 Illegal Participation foul?

yessir. That's what I have. Except I would say I wouldn't think of it as two fouls. I would think of it as an escalation. The IS turned into IP when he participated. IOW, when I reported the foul to the opposing coach, I wouldn't offer him both. I would simply say, "Coach, we have IP on them. You want the penalty?"
« Last Edit: November 11, 2023, 09:32:55 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2023, 01:46:42 PM »
Consider IS/IP as sorta' like 5 yd FM to PFFM or running into to roughing the kicker. The minor penalty turns into a major penalty. We use to say "Ya' can't be offside 'till ya' onside" same applies to encrouching.

Offline mhez141

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2023, 08:10:07 AM »
Another scenario.  A has a long run of say 50 yards and has a 1st.  BJ sets ball and R winds game clock.  A gets to line fast and snapper has hands on ball and all A players are set and ball is snapped.  B still has slow Bubba running to get on his side but does not make it to his side of LOS when ball is snapped.  What do you have?

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2023, 09:06:35 AM »
DOF.  If all A players can get up there and get set, so can B.

...as long as all officials are where they are supposed to be, and ready to go.  If they're not, B or U should hold A until the crew is in place... and expect to get an earful from A if this is the case.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2023, 09:07:09 AM »
Another scenario.  A has a long run of say 50 yards and has a 1st.  BJ sets ball and R winds game clock.  A gets to line fast and snapper has hands on ball and all A players are set and ball is snapped.  B still has slow Bubba running to get on his side but does not make it to his side of LOS when ball is snapped.  What do you have?


Can't see this happening since as U I'm not leaving the ball until B is on the correct side of the ball and if I'm the R I'm checking in 1st with the linesman to see the box is there then 2nd with the U then winding.  IMHO we shouldn't be winding until the fire drill is over.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2023, 12:46:04 PM »
Another scenario.  A has a long run of say 50 yards and has a 1st.  BJ sets ball and R winds game clock.  A gets to line fast and snapper has hands on ball and all A players are set and ball is snapped.  B still has slow Bubba running to get on his side but does not make it to his side of LOS when ball is snapped.  What do you have?

Yeah, that's not happening. First of all, my BJ will NEVER set the ball. That's the U's job. Second, my U is not leaving the ball until everybody is on the right side. However, if something like this were to happen with me as WH, I'm killing the play, taking an official's timeout and waiting until everybody is "ready to play," before I blow it in.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2023, 02:06:59 PM »
So given the original play here, what would you have if the incoming substitute had got inside the 9's and on his side of the NZ but was still moving but now on A's side of the ball as the ball was snapped?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2023, 03:21:35 PM »
So given the original play here, what would you have if the incoming substitute had got inside the 9's and on his side of the NZ but was still moving but now on A's side of the ball as the ball was snapped?

Illegal shift. Never set for 1 second.

Offline sczeebra

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2023, 03:31:36 PM »
Along those same lines, B has 12 on the field prior to the snap (B76 came in) they are a bit confused in their coverage. B55 starts to exit prior to 3 seconds elapsing and A is set, ready to snap the ball and wing guys I've spoken with say they will kill the clock and flag B for illegal substitution. I tell them you just killed what could have been a free/ big play for the offense.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2023, 04:13:44 PM »
Along those same lines, B has 12 on the field prior to the snap (B76 came in) they are a bit confused in their coverage. B55 starts to exit prior to 3 seconds elapsing and A is set, ready to snap the ball and wing guys I've spoken with say they will kill the clock and flag B for illegal substitution. I tell them you just killed what could have been a free/ big play for the offense.

Exactly. That drives me bonkers. Just ask my crew. It's one of the forbidden 4.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2023, 05:12:36 PM »
Exactly. That drives me bonkers. Just ask my crew. It's one of the forbidden 4.

Out of curiosity, what's the other 3?

Offline sczeebra

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2023, 06:15:09 PM »
I'd like to hear the other 3 also!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2023, 07:44:52 PM »
1. Don't blow the whistle early
2. Don't fish in your partner's pond
3. Don't get the down wrong
4. Don't blow a live ball dead because of a flag.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2023, 09:43:02 AM »
Along those same lines, B has 12 on the field prior to the snap (B76 came in) they are a bit confused in their coverage. B55 starts to exit prior to 3 seconds elapsing and A is set, ready to snap the ball and wing guys I've spoken with say they will kill the clock and flag B for illegal substitution. I tell them you just killed what could have been a free/ big play for the offense.


Can't quite picture being a "bit confused in their coverage" and not having exceeded the 3 second guidance.  Once the incoming substitute crosses the 9's he becomes a player and a replaced player must start his exit within 3 seconds or we can flag.  If it's clear that he will not get off before the snap we've been told to blow and throw this.  No free plays for team A unless it's that rare instance where B subs late, the replaced player heads off almost immediately but doesn't quite make it.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 03:07:45 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2023, 09:54:01 AM »
IMHO, once you see B with 12 and no one planning on leaving, blow and throw.  ^flag If the 12th B is heading for the sidelines, but still on the field when the ball is snapped, IS, previous spot.  ^flag.

Don't always listen to me, I felt the RedSox would win the World Series and the Patriots will win the Super Bowl  :( :( :puke: :puke:.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 01:19:31 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2023, 10:49:52 AM »
IMHO, once you see B with 12 and no one planning on leaving, blow and throw.  ^flag If the 12th B is heading for the sidelines, but still on the field when the ball is snapped, IS, succeding spot.  ^flag .

Don't always listen to me, I felt the RedSox would win the World Series and the Patriots will win the Super Bowl  :( :( :puke: :puke: .


 :bOW
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Fatso

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2023, 07:45:07 AM »
IMHO, once you see B with 12 and no one planning on leaving, blow and throw.  ^flag

12 with no one leaving, blow and throw = for the 3 second rule which is dead ball foul correct?

Quote
If the 12th B is heading for the sidelines, but still on the field when the ball is snapped, IS, previous spot.  ^flag.

Ralph, why is this previous spot?  (rule 7-4) lists this as a live ball foul.  Is there a special enforcement?   thanks for your info

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2023, 08:00:14 AM »
12 with no one leaving, blow and throw = for the 3 second rule which is dead ball foul correct?

Ralph, why is this previous spot?  (rule 7-4) lists this as a live ball foul.  Is there a special enforcement?   thanks for your info

Basic spot is previous spot for fouls that occur simultaneous with the snap.
10-4-2a.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 08:02:10 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2023, 08:18:16 AM »
Ralph, why is this previous spot?  (rule 3-7-4) lists this as a live ball foul.  Is there a special enforcement?   thanks for your info


Rule is 3-7-4
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Fatso

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2023, 12:13:40 PM »
Basic spot is previous spot for fouls that occur simultaneous with the snap.
10-4-2a.
  Thanks.  Brain fart....

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Substitute
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2023, 03:18:01 PM »
If Bubba wanders out on the field to get a better view during a play, but doesn't participate, that would be an IS succeeding spot foul with the USC/NC signal preceeding the IS signal.