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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: zebraken on September 21, 2016, 10:31:55 PM
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In a game using 5 officials who has the whistle to kill the play once the kick obviously fails on a try? The back judge or the referee?
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Any official who can identify that the kick has obviously failed. IMO, if the kick is blocked, this will usually be a wing. R has eyes on the kicker, U and BJ will usually have their view blocked by the line and cannot easily pick up the ball right away.
For a kick that goes wide, whoever is under the upright. Most crews just have the BJ do it in this case.
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Our mechanics specify the BJ. However, I will tweet as the R if the ball gets blocked behind the LOS.
Some Rs will tweet immediately after toe meets leather, since under FED rules, nothing else can happen.
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This is obviously dependent on local mechanics, but ours has the U give an immediate whistle upon the kick, though if blocked and continuing action may happen, it's quite common and accepted for the R to whistle as well. As BJ, I just always tell the U next to me "your whistle - quick whistle" to reinforce it. On a FG, I'd say "your whistle - slow whistle" since we don't want to kill it right after the kick on that play.
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I don't like doing an immediate whistle on the kick because some guys get lulled into the habit, then forget when it's a field goal.
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I usually tweet my tweeter a split-second after the ball is kicked. When 20 players stack up, only bad things occur with a late whistle.
Editor's note : A habit that needs breaking for a field goal attempt :-[!
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This is obviously dependent on local mechanics, but ours has the U give an immediate whistle upon the kick, though if blocked and continuing action may happen, it's quite common and accepted for the R to whistle as well. As BJ, I just always tell the U next to me "your whistle - quick whistle" to reinforce it. On a FG, I'd say "your whistle - slow whistle" since we don't want to kill it right after the kick on that play.
I'm not sure I'd want to give the U the whistle on a field goal -- especially if it's at significant distance. The BJ should be able to rule on the kick breaking the plane of the goal line while the U is facing the wrong way.
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We remind each other ,in pregame & prior to the kick , that a field goal is to be treated just like a punt and hold our tweeters. The pole-pals (BJ/HL or LJ/BJ) kill the play once the ball has reached the EZ if FG is NG or once thru the pipes.
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I'm not sure I'd want to give the U the whistle on a field goal -- especially if it's at significant distance. The BJ should be able to rule on the kick breaking the plane of the goal line while the U is facing the wrong way.
We have the U and BJ on the posts.
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We have the U and BJ on the posts.
Does the U still handle roughing the snapper from back there?
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Some Rs will tweet immediately after toe meets leather, since under FED rules, nothing else can happen.
B cannot score on PAT but if blocked (bad snap, hold, etc), A still has oportunity to convert for 2; yes?
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I believe you need to be very careful with the immediate whistle philosophy on a scrimmage kick - try or FG attempt. An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead.
:sTiR:
Think of AB's stud kicker. 0:04 left in 4Q. Make it and he wins the game. In order, toe meets leather, the whistle blows, and stud flies it wide right. I won't speak for him, but AB is savvy enough with the rules to jump all over your IAW and demand a re-kick for the it. And a dollar to a bag of donuts he is not the only coach who knows the rule. Wait for it...
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B cannot score on PAT but if blocked (bad snap, hold, etc), A still has oportunity to convert for 2; yes?
Not in NFHS. 8-3-2-b. Play is dead immediately when it is apparent a place kick will not score.
If this occurs during a scrimmage kick, the ball would still be alive.
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B cannot score on PAT but if blocked (bad snap, hold, etc), A still has oportunity to convert for 2; yes?
No. A try (PAT) is over once it's apparent the kick will not score.
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I believe you need to be very careful with the immediate whistle philosophy on a scrimmage kick - try or FG attempt. An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead.
:sTiR:
Think of AB's stud kicker. 0:04 left in 4Q. Make it and he wins the game. In order, toe meets leather, the whistle blows, and stud flies it wide right. I won't speak for him, but AB is savvy enough with the rules to jump all over your IAW and demand a re-kick for the it. And a dollar to a bag of donuts he is not the only coach who knows the rule. Wait for it...
The immediate whistle philosophy is only for PATs!
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The immediate whistle philosophy is only for PATs!
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By rule, when does the ball become dead?
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The immediate whistle philosophy is only for PATs!
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Not a NFHS guy, but wouldn't the IW still apply. Loose ball (kick in air) and whistle sounds. In NCAA it would definitely be IW
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Not a NFHS guy, but wouldn't the IW still apply. Loose ball (kick in air) and whistle sounds. In NCAA it would definitely be IW
My point exactly"
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Was watching a game form Tennessee that was on television a couple of weeks ago. They blew every PAT dead as soon as it was kicked. Drove me insane.
Don't do it. It's not right by rule and it's going to get you into bad habits.
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Not a NFHS guy, but wouldn't the IW still apply. Loose ball (kick in air) and whistle sounds. In NCAA it would definitely be IW
Under FED rules, on a kick try the only two possible results are Good or No Good.
However, it's a valid point that maybe an immediate whistle is a bad habit. Some of us old, decrepit WHs may not realize that we're playing a FG attempt from the 3 instead of a try.
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By rule, when does the ball become dead?
During a try, if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.
I'm willing to bet no WH blows their whistle on a try before the ball is actually to the uprights seeing as they watch the continuous action. I only see that being an issue if the PAT begins from a further distance due to penalties.
In all instances, the point is that nothing else can occur. But I understand where you are getting at.
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My association tends to be quicker on the whistle on a try than I would personally like, for the same "bad habits" reason others mention. We also make sure we give the "live ball" signal (like college officials do) for a field goal. I haven't blown one early on a FG yet, thank heavens...
In 5 man, if the snap is from inside the 15, or if we're in a "game critical" situation (late in the game with a tie or the lead on the line) we send the B and HL back, with the R covering the L's vacated side. If it's snapped outside the 15 and not a critical situation, B is back there all by his lonesome.
In 7 man, B and F are under the goal posts for all kick tries and all FG tries. The S serves as the second umpire on a try; on a FG, he has responsibility for the determining if the kick breaks the goal line, and lines up on the goal line at his hash mark.
In all cases, the "other official" is responsible for only his goalpost, while the B is responsible for the whistle, the crossbar, and their goalpost.
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During a try, if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.
I'm willing to bet no WH blows their whistle on a try before the ball is actually to the uprights seeing as they watch the continuous action. I only see that being an issue if the PAT begins from a further distance due to penalties.
In all instances, the point is that nothing else can occur. But I understand where you are getting at.
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What I'm getting at is BY RULE the ball becomes dead when an official blows his whistle. Blowing it too quickly is an IAW which opens a whole new can of worms. What the rush? ???
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What I'm getting at is BY RULE the ball becomes dead when an official blows his whistle. Blowing it too quickly is an IAW which opens a whole new can of worms. What the rush? ???
But in FED, every successful kick try occurs with a "dead" ball, since it's dead by rule when it breaks the plane of R's EZ. (Of course, there's an exception for a scoring kick.)
The reason for an early whistle is to stop play when nothing else can happen.
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But it doesn't become dead UNTIL it breaks the plane. Big difference!
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You can always blow the whistle late. Unfortunately you can't undo an early whistle.
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But it doesn't become dead UNTIL it breaks the plane. Big difference!
Even if it's technically an IW, where's the harm?
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Even if it's technically an IW, where's the harm?
+1
Been doing this for a Loooong time with no issues. No harm; just SMART! Look, if you can't differentiate between a try and field goal, maybe you should be a Water Polo referee. R/B can't score, so what does it matter. Let's not over-think this... tiphat:
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You can always blow the whistle late. Unfortunately you can't undo an early whistle.
:thumbup :thumbup
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B cannot score on PAT but if blocked (bad snap, hold, etc), A still has oportunity to convert for 2; yes?
IF there was a bad snap or muff by the holder the ball would remain in play and could result in 2 for A. IF a kick is made and blocked, the play is dead.
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Like most here, round these parts there is an early whistle on trys either soon after toe hits leather or on or about when the plane is crossed.
Rulesman has a fine point about IW.
It seems the intent of the 'quick whistle' for trys is to prevent bubba getting carried away in trying to block a kick, but also to remind/notify the players the ball is dead (i.e. on blocks it is not live) so bubba doesnt pick it up and start a mad-dash.
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I don't like doing an immediate whistle on the kick because some guys get lulled into the habit, then forget when it's a field goal.
bossman72 nailed it on this one!
Recently in our area (names withheld to protect the guilty):
Score tied in fourth period with seconds left in the period. K attempts a game winning FG. While kick is in the air: 1) time for the period expires; 2) an unnamed official has an IW. Kick lands short of R's goal line and in the field of play.
Officials get together and eventually announce that the 4th period has ended and the game will proceed to OT. Coach K says nothing. Coach R complains that the IW cost his team a chance to return the FG attempt.
It seems that the officials AND coach R got off the hook because Coach K did not know the rule regarding how an IW that occurs while a scrimmage kick is in the air should be handled.
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I don't like doing an immediate whistle on the kick because some guys get lulled into the habit, then forget when it's a field goal.
Damn near did this myself a couple of weeks ago... one of many reasons why it's good to keep talking to each other about what's coming.
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For consistency, our back judge has the whistle on any FG or PAT kick as long as the kick proceeds as normally expected. If it's blocked or is kicked toward the sideline, the covering official would handle the whistle as they would on any scrimmage play.
We blow the whistle only when the ball is dead by rule. At one time, many years ago, when individual referees operated their own fiefdoms, several used the "whistle at the kick" on PATs. That has been mothballed in our efforts to be more consistent and uniform.
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your chance of getting an IW on a try are a lot less likely than a sack of donuts for a dollar!