Play from NFL - How would you handle under NCAA rules

[centexsports]

Kickoff seven yards deep into the endzone.   The player catches the ball and takes a step and flips it toward the R.   He dodges the ball and K recovers.   R signals touchdown.   By rule, the ball is still alive.   In this case, an official (assuming replay) on the sideline ran to the R and then the other officials converge.   I am almost certain the guys in NY told the replay guy to go tell the R that he gave himself up (that was the announcement).   

I have decided that replay is a joke, even though it does prevent some serious mistakes.   The last play of the Vikings/Saints game had a push off that could not be ignored but it was.   A stiff arm in the chest giving space on a game winning catch.   There were also numerous issues during many bowl games.   Put the responsibility back on the field guys or limit the number of replays again.

JMO

[js in sc]

The apparent desire for perfection through replay has done nothing but make officials fear for their jobs and increase the imperfection of "getting it right".  It needs to disappear.  We are not perfect, nor apparently is the replay review.

[Kalle]

Dean Blandino called this common sense officiating and I fully agree in the NFL, and would likely agree in NCAA (or IFAF in my case, but no difference in this). Would be interested to hear from a major conference / CFO coordinator if this happened in a NCAA game, though.

[Sonofanump]

By rule, the ball is still alive.

Technically, if you are going by rule, if the ball was live when the player tossed it forward, it would be dead as an incomplete pass once the ball touched the ground.

[bctgp]

if it was forward then it is an illegal forward pass and the result of the play is Safety, right?

[ilyazhito]

Yes,that would be the case, by rule. Illegal forward pass in the end zone is enforced from the spot of the foul (in the end zone), so the result of the penalty enforcement is a safety.

[JasonTX]

I would use AR 8-6-1 II.  The last sentence: ...if in the judgment of the official there is perceptible time during which the team B player made no attempt to advance...declaring touchback is justified.

[CW123]

Common sense officiating. Once he threw the ball to the official, he gave himself up, the play is dead. Consensus from almost all D1 Supervisors after it happened a few years in a game. Can't remember the home team but the visitors were South Carolina State & they were playing a FBS team. Returner did the same thing. They allowed the ball to be recovered by the kicking team for a TD I believe. It made almost all the training tapes in other conferences & all the Supervisors wanted that to be a touchback.

[Kalle]

Common sense officiating. Once he threw the ball to the official, he gave himself up, the play is dead. Consensus from almost all D1 Supervisors after it happened a few years in a game. Can't remember the home team but the visitors were South Carolina State & they were playing a FBS team. Returner did the same thing. They allowed the ball to be recovered by the kicking team for a TD I believe. It made almost all the training tapes in other conferences & all the Supervisors wanted that to be a touchback.

Here's the play (hey I beat TXMike!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b3HqOx6bDo

[wlemonnier]

Actually had this happen in an NCAA game at the old Metro-Dome in MSP a "few" years back.  Receiving team players telling and signaling the receiver in the EZ to take a knee... instead he flips the ball forward to the official at the goal line from 3-4 yards deep in the EZ.  Official steps back, drops a flag and is going to call illegal forward pass from the EZ on the opening kickoff of the game.  R refused to accept the call and announced the receiver gave up and the play is dead, a touchback.

Conference coordinator 300% agreed with the touchback call and told the official that threw the flag that shouldn't be called in a Pop Warner game let alone a D-1 game.  Official was beyond stubborn and argumentative about the play.  After that season he was doing something else besides officiating college football.

This is a no brainer for common sense... no different than feigning a knee.  The play is over.

[VALJ]

As my VP of training said years and years ago, "by rule, that's what it is.  But if you call that, you'll be the best non-working official in this association."

[Derek Teigen]

watching the replay of the controversial first down by the Packers late in the NFC divisional game last night I agree that technology can confuse matters.  I thought watching the replays that the line judge gave a very good spot.  The players knees weren't down and the ball was well beyond the line to gain when the runner contacted the ground by diving forward.

Yet the yellow line they put on tv appears to make him short so when we start to trust the special effects on the air instead of the officials on the ground I think the sport losing a lot.

Besides, the element of human error has always been part of the game and now we are adding more humans into the mix with people in the replay booths and tv production crews adding yellow first down lines.... increasing the odds mistakes will be made.

[ump_ben]

Derek, first this is probably better as a new thread.  Or at least you could have tagged it into the thread I posted about replay and the line to gain a while back.  http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=14777.0  But setting that aside.

That spot was wrong.  There is indisputable video evidence that it was wrong.  The official placed the ball a half yard beyond the line to gain and it wasn't close to that.  The spot was wrong by between 17 inches and 30 inches.  That's as good as the camera could tell us.  The line to gain was the yard line (previous series had the ball start on the yard line.  The yellow line was off of that by a matter of no more than 3-4 inches.  Here's the problem though with the replay rule beyond all the confusion that the moving line and 2 replays caused. 

We have indisputable evidence that the human element was wrong as to where the ball was.  We do not have indisputable evidence that result of the call was wrong.  If the call on the field were more wrong the replay official would have had to spot the ball and would have put it short of the yard line because the preponderance of the evidence said it was short.  (In fact, he would have put it 18 yards behind the yard line and been at least 6 inches off but more likely 15 or 16.)  (You could also end up with the GA Tech play from above, if he decides to have it spotted on the yard line and they put it down and then measure.) 

I would personally favor on calls like this that if there is indisputable evidence that the calling official missed the spot then replay should rule on the line to gain using a preponderance standard.

[Derek Teigen]

Hello Ump Ben.  yes I agree i should have tagged or started a new thread on this.  I'm going to look at the replays again of that first down spot we were talking about.  I  have been paying close attention to spots while watching games on tv as this IS an area of weakness for me.    But my understanding is when a player is diving forward the ball should be spotted where the ball touches the ground or where it was when the runner's knees or other part of the body touches the ground.  so when looking at the Packer replay I'm paying very close attention to that and like I said I'm going to look at it again.

[Kalle]

But my understanding is when a player is diving forward the ball should be spotted where the ball touches the ground or where it was when the runner's knees or other part of the body touches the ground.

(Held) Ball touching the ground does not make it dead or have bearing on the forward progress. FP is determined only (if we ignore sideline) by the position of the ball when any body part other than a hand or a foot touches the ground (or runner's forward progress is stopped). Or well, this is how it applies in NCAA and NFL, not 100% sure about NFHS.

[NVFOA_Ump]

(Held) Ball touching the ground does not make it dead or have bearing on the forward progress. FP is determined only (if we ignore sideline) by the position of the ball when any body part other than a hand or a foot touches the ground (or runner's forward progress is stopped). Or well, this is how it applies in NCAA and NFL, not 100% sure about NFHS.

NFHS is the same.  The "spot" is determined by where the most forward part of the ball is at the instant the ball carrier is considered down by rule.

[Joe Stack]

On the touchback thing, the Referee should always be BEHIND the player so there is no confusion as to whether or not the player is giving up and it is, thus a touchback. If he's near the sideline, the wing officials should obviously be out of bounds for the same reason.

I don't know why officials have gotten into the habit of getting in front of players after a touchback has been ruled in the end zone. There's no reason for this. We aren't in pads and if a player gets hit, you already have all the tools you need to take care of it (flag, pen/paper for DQ and report, etc.). You don't need to put yourself in jeopardy and the thought that it will prevent someone from making a hit may or may not be true. I expect my whistle to do that and if it doesn't, the player is better protected than I am.

[ElvisLives]

I don't know why officials have gotten into the habit of getting in front of players after a touchback has been ruled in the end zone. There's no reason for this. We aren't in pads and if a player gets hit, you already have all the tools you need to take care of it (flag, pen/paper for DQ and report, etc.). You don't need to put yourself in jeopardy and the thought that it will prevent someone from making a hit may or may not be true. I expect my whistle to do that and if it doesn't, the player is better protected than I am.

That is what is the NFL guys are expected to do - to mitigate interaction between opponents, since the ball is dead.  Players will smack somebody, then claim they didn't hear the whistle, or some other baloney.  If we get out into the field of play and make 'big' time out and touchback signals, the onrushing players see us, and either slow up or alter their paths, and generally don't have interaction with opponents.
The NFL guys pass such techniques down to NCAA guys, via clinics or via the Coordinators for a number of conferences (current or former NFL officials).

Personally, I do not move directly in front of a receiver, for reasons you state.  But, I do hustle into the field of play - usually getting beyond the yard line of the deep receiver(s), first using a very "big"  time out signal (again, as handed down by NFL guys), with repeated blasts with my whistle, then the touchback signal.  They see us.  They relax.  It is good practice.