Author Topic: How was he graded  (Read 2538 times)

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Offline Covid 22

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How was he graded
« on: November 28, 2020, 01:31:19 PM »
In one of the college games yesterday a Referee covered for one of his wing officials.   Live ball flag.   The ball was brought back to the PS and 5 yards marked off against A.   The referee turned on him mic and said:  "Illegal Motion on #?.  He was lined up on the LOS and moved before the snap."    He gave the Illegal Motion signal.

We have all probably had this multiple times and did the same thing ( I know I have).   My question is how would he be graded in a Power Five conference game on TV for accessing a dead ball foul as a live ball foul?   

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 02:00:57 PM »
Unless he simulated the snap, this is a live ball foul because the player can always correct the foul by setting into a new position.


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Offline bossman72

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 07:09:43 PM »
In one of the college games yesterday a Referee covered for one of his wing officials.   Live ball flag.   The ball was brought back to the PS and 5 yards marked off against A.   The referee turned on him mic and said:  "Illegal Motion on #?.  He was lined up on the LOS and moved before the snap."    He gave the Illegal Motion signal.

We have all probably had this multiple times and did the same thing ( I know I have).   My question is how would he be graded in a Power Five conference game on TV for accessing a dead ball foul as a live ball foul?   

This was probably a WR re-adjusting or moving (smoothly) and not setting prior to the snap.  If the only thing that makes it a foul was the ball being snapped while he's moving, then it's a live ball foul for ILM.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2020, 09:25:55 AM »
This was probably a WR re-adjusting or moving (smoothly) and not setting prior to the snap.  If the only thing that makes it a foul was the ball being snapped while he's moving, then it's a live ball foul for ILM.
I was watching the game live — that’s exactly what happened.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2020, 11:45:47 AM »
I have been racking my brain for several days to understand how this is a live ball foul.  Your arguments go against the rule completely.   See Below:

The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the
snap after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV). This is an illegal
shift that converts to a false start.

Illegal motion is a foul by a player in the backfield.  A wide receiver moving at the snap but not simulating the snap is by definition an illegal shift.   Dead Ball and signaled as a FS.

Am I still wrong?   I believe this was changed about 10 years ago.   I remember discussing an illegal shift converting to a FS.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2020, 11:59:07 AM »
A shift (legal or not) requires two or more players moving by definition. Illegal motion can happen one of two ways. A player moving forward at the snap OR a player in motion at the snap who started that motion from the line of scrimmage. So a wide out on the line who is moving at the snap has committed a foul for illegal motion. You can remember this because the signal for ILM is with one hand and only one player is involved in the foul.

If he moved while somebody else was also in motion at the snap, that would be an illegal shift because there was more than player moving. The signal for illegal shift is with multiple hands because multiple players must be involved for it to be a shift.

The only time an illegal shift converts to a false start is it the offense never gets set for 1 second prior to the snap. If the offense gets set and then two players move without getting set again, it is a live ball foul for illegal shift, not a false start.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 01:47:24 PM »
A excellent explanation and example.  I just can't find anything that defines a movement by a player on the LOS moving at the snap to be motion and live ball.   Plus, I have never seen a wide out move before and during the snap get flagged for anything but FS.

Team A is in a no-huddle offense and is moving to the line when the ball
is made ready for play. Although some players settle into their positions
and stop, at least one player never stops and is still moving when the ball
is snapped. RULING: Dead-ball foul: Illegal shift that converts to a false
start. Team A never satisfied the one-second rule before the snap. Officials
should shut the play down and penalize Team A five yards.

Thanks for your post.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 02:07:19 PM »
Quote
I just can't find anything that defines a movement by a player on the LOS moving at the snap to be motion and live ball.

7-1-4-b-2

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 08:00:34 PM »
To offer an important clarification, an illegal shift that converts to a false start is when all Team A players fail to come to a complete stop for one full second AFTER THE BALL IS READY FOR PLAY. Once they do come set, or stay set, for a full second after the ball is ready for play (declared by signal, or when the ball is spotted and the spotting official steps away), then the ‘converts to a false start’ rule no longer applies. After that point, two players moving at the snap is an Illegal Shift - live ball foul.  A player moving forward, or a player in motion from the line at the snap is Illegal Motion - live ball foul.

Offline bossman72

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2020, 08:48:29 AM »
A excellent explanation and example.  I just can't find anything that defines a movement by a player on the LOS moving at the snap to be motion and live ball.   Plus, I have never seen a wide out move before and during the snap get flagged for anything but FS.

Think of it this way.  You've seen many many times WR's setting on the line, getting the play from the sideline, then jogging in and re-setting on the line tighter to the formation, right?

All legal.

So, what happens if the ball gets snapped in the middle of him moving?
This can't be a false start, because if he didn't snap the ball, you would allow this motion/shift no problem.  So if the only thing that made this a foul was the ball being snapped, it's live ball illegal motion.

If the movement was abrupt/sudden, we shut it down for FST no matter what happens with the snap.

The only exception is what Elvis mentioned with not all 11 players setting coming out of the huddle.  Apples and oranges from the original play.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: How was he graded
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2020, 09:55:09 AM »
Illegal shifts that convert to a false start (ILS-FST) are pretty easy when there has been a huddle (whether all 11 gather closely together, or somewhat spread out, awaiting instructions from the sideline) and then they move somewhat quickly to their final positions, but there is one guy that hasn't quite got set when the ball is snapped very soon after the other 10 have stopped.
But, what happens occasionally is a team moves from their "huddle" to their final positions, and 10 players stop in their positions for 3-4 seconds, while one 'straggler' - usually a wide receiver - is still trying to find his perfect spot, and, he still doesn't get stopped completely before the ball is snapped. The optics of that is kind of weird for a false start, but that is, indeed, an illegal shift that converts to a false start, and is a dead-ball foul.
If they move from a tight huddle, a 'muddle' huddle, or a loose formation into final positions, the ILS-FST rule applies. This includes those situations when they are in their general positions, but are looking to the sideline for the play call, then, after the play call, interior linemen turn and set into position, and the backs and WRs adjust to their final positions. All 11 must get set for 1 full second thereafter before the snap. If not, that's a dead-ball ILS-FST.
 
But, once all 11 get fully stopped in a football formation (not a tight huddle, a 'muddle' huddle, or a loose formation) for one second after the ball is ready, then the ILS-FST rule doesn't apply. After that, if a couple of guys (or more) move simultaneously (and not a false start), that's a shift, and the entire team has to stop, again, for one full second before the snap. If they don't, that's a live-ball illegal shift foul. If one guy starts smoothly, but is moving forward at the snap, or came from the line and then the ball is snapped, that is live-ball illegal motion.

Also note that, if all 11 are fully stopped at the moment the ball is declared ready for play, they have met the 'stop' requirement, and do not have to wait one more full second to snap the ball. They may snap immediately upon the ball being declared ready. You'll see that in 'last second' situations, when Team A needs to get the ball snapped before the clock expires. Say the clock is stopped momentarily for a first down, and to get a replacement ball into the game, Team A may have time to get all 11 in formation and stopped before the U/C gets the ball down, steps away, and the ball is declared ready (and clock re-started). They may snap immediately.