Author Topic: FST or ISH?  (Read 1161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2661
  • FAN REACTION: +105/-51
FST or ISH?
« on: December 23, 2020, 10:53:48 PM »
On this link is a video of a story about a play from the Texas state championships.  This story talks about a Dallas Cowboys "shift" and how a high school team uses a similar "shift".  So using NCAA rules look at the way the Landry Cowboys shifted do you have any foul there?

Then look at the high school play and do you have a foul on the offense?

https://www.texomashomepage.com/sports/sports-spotlight-windthorst-trojans-use-adaptation-of-the-landry-shift-to-help-win-state-title-december-23-2020/

Online bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1869
  • FAN REACTION: +211/-24
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2020, 11:15:11 PM »
Yes, absolutely a FST, especially if they don't do this every play.

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3091
  • FAN REACTION: +111/-15
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2020, 06:17:52 AM »
That isn't even close to the "Landry shift".  That's a "snapdown".

I had a WH one time see the visiting team do that during warm-ups.  He casually mentioned to the HC that he better see that done every play beginning with the first one.  We went from a fairly cordial pre-game to hostile in about 3 seconds. 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3516
  • FAN REACTION: +83/-114
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2020, 07:38:19 AM »
Yes, absolutely a FST, especially if they don't do this every play.

Have to agree.  The motion here is very abrupt and unlike the "Landry shift" IMHO is not intended to confuse the defense by shifting but simply intended to draw the defense offside.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 2367
  • FAN REACTION: +121/-102
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2020, 09:17:41 AM »
I watched some of this game live, and I am disappointed that I either didn't see a Windthorst try, or, somehow, this action just got by me.

No question. This is a false start. These players are making a quick, jerky motion to drop down in three-point stances. There is only one reason to make this type of movement, and that is to cause the defense to react, with the hope, by the offensive team, that the defense either makes contact, or is still in the NZ at the snap. Patently illegal. Even if you, somehow - and incorrectly - ruled this action to not be a false start, it is definitely an illegal shift, as the ball gets snapped almost the instant that the linemen get their hands on the ground - no one second pause.

We gotta get this stopped. We had a team do that on their first try early in the game (and early in the season), and we called them on it. They fussed, of course. But, once they knew we were going to make this call, they didn't do it any more.  We also had a couple of teams 'go fast' like this on regular scrimmage downs. We also put a stop to that.

Some of you made comments about "if this was the first time..." or "if they don't do this every down..." Baloney. This is a foul the first time it shows up. This is a foul every time it shows up. We simply must have the courage to make this call and stop these attempts by the offense to illegally draw a foul against the defense. This is no different than defenses making those abrupt movements at the line, in the guise of 'normal defensive movements,' in an attempt to draw a false start. We gotta have the cajones to make these calls, and get these types of actions stopped. These are completely illegal. They are illegal because they are totally outside the spirit of fair play. Yeah, coaches may not care about fair play, but that is why we exist. To make sure the integrity of the game is protected.

This team had obviously been doing this all season. Now, how does a team get all the way to a championship game still doing this? As with most officiating issues in UIL (Texas) sports, it is the ability of coaches to select the officials that work their games. Many officials are reluctant to make tough calls like this, fearing that, if they do, they'll not be selected to work future games for that school. I've been saying this for at least 30 years: Officiating of UIL sports will not reach the highest level that can be reached until the institutions (coaches) are removed from the official assignment process. This is what you get. You don't see this happening in FBS football, because it is illegal, and FBS officials are expected to make these calls. They are able to make these calls, because they are unencumbered by the spectre of the "scratch." In my FBS days, if I made such a correct call against Oklahoma/Boise State/Oregon/Alabama, etc., I might have had same school three weeks later. No amount of complaining about the call would have got me removed. Even an occasional incorrect call/missed no call wouldn't be cause for removal from a future assignment to that school.  We busted our butts to make correct calls, and didn't need any 'encouragement' from any coach or institution to do so, and didn't fear repercussion for any single judgment call. Yes, a pattern of incorrect calls/missed no calls would have consequences, but those were as much in the form of self-criticism than outside criticism.
The point is: Officials are not free to do the job right when the contestants can select the officials working their contests. Let's get that changed.

 

Offline bctgp

  • *
  • Posts: 219
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-10
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2020, 12:05:11 PM »
I completely agree with Elvis - This type of Team A action is getting more and more prevalent in Texas HS football. And it is almost never called right. There's a reason we don't see this in NCAA & NFL in general, because they officiate it correctly.  Similar to Team B disconcerting signals and movements that we saw an increase of in HS football - for which TASO put together a specific seminar on to help officials understand it and call it consistently. It would be good to have a similar training webinar on Team A movements like we saw in this video. Until officials call these type of actions consistently it will continue to grow in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 12:32:03 PM by bctgp »

Offline Etref

  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 2112
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-23
  • " I don't make the rules coach!"
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2020, 01:39:00 PM »
What Elvis Said, and to combine this with another thread about coaches behavior. Make the call, the right call and let the chips fall where they may.

Do the right thing consistently and should be rewarded with the games.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3516
  • FAN REACTION: +83/-114
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2020, 03:36:56 PM »
.......  So using NCAA rules look at the way the Landry Cowboys shifted do you have any foul there?
Then look at the high school play and do you have a foul on the offense?

I answered the 2nd question that IMHO this is a false start, no need to add anything - Elvis has all the details.  The 1st question, the original "Landry shift"  IMHO would be legal under all codes as the "shift" is a true textbook shift with no sudden jerky motions and all players clearly set for a count before the snap.  Additionally, as Elvis notes, the how many times it's used is not a factor.  The Cowboys used this shift many times in every game and it was carefully executed to be legal.  Not so much the case play here.   ^flag
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Online dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 628
  • FAN REACTION: +14/-7
  • I know just enough to be dangerous...
Re: FST or ISH?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2020, 09:19:49 AM »
This happened in week 2 or 3 of this season.

I was HL and my sideline  was on defense.  DT lined up in the neutral zone. Assistant coaches behind me groaned, they saw it too, and we couldn't get him to move back.  He lunged across (no contact) and before the snap, he got back... to where he initially lined up, in the neutral zone (wasn't even close, he was a good 2/3 way past the football.)  When snap went off, I had a flag for defense offsides.  Head coach was livid, yelling that he got back in time, and I explained to him that his player lined up in the NZ, and even though he got back, he was still in the NZ at the snap.  He flat out told me that if I wanted to ever get selected for any playoff games, I don't throw that flag again.  I'm sure when he saw the film he knew I was right.  Just an example of the idiocy of allowing coaches to select chapters and crews.