Author Topic: Correcting a down  (Read 32199 times)

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Offline Curious

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2015, 11:08:45 AM »
I am obviously not looking at something the right way here and am getting confused, and could use a little help.  The following was the first item on the 2015 NFHS Football Rules Interpretation paper the NFHS sent out:

SITUATION 1: Second down and
six. On the last play of the third period,
A38 runs for 3 yards. After the
play, the down-marker indicator is
flipped to fourth down. Following a
brief pause to ensure no reason to
defer ending the quarter, the referee
holds the ball over his head. Both
teams change ends of the field and the
chains are reversed. Before the ball is
snapped for the first play of the fourth
period, Team A’s coach recognizes the
down error. RULING: The third period
officially ended when the referee
held the ball over his head. The down
error may not be corrected. (5-1-1)

I am having trouble understanding their ruling that the down can not be corrected.  Another play has not been run.  The ball has not been put in play.  We know it was 2nd down now it is third, even though the box man flipped the dial to the wrong down.  Seems like a simple thing to flip the box back from 4 to the 3 that it should be.  Any help in interpreting this would be appreciated.

I have raised the same question with our State interpreter and he agrees that the error is correctable.  After all, we're just changing ends.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2015, 11:49:47 AM »
PET PEVES:
 -In baseball, when the wrong count or outs is on the scoreboard. Yes ,I know the ump is official BUT I want to be sure the players & coaches know before the ball is pitched = get the scoreboard operator's attention and get it corrected, even if I need to call time out.

 -In football, when the downs marker is wrong.= OTO, first verify that you're right and he's wrong and get it corrected prior to new RFP. The entire crew should echo, with their fingers, before the RFP on every snap.

 -Lima beans, NY Yankees, and the such....

PS :The new spiffy interpretations deals basically about the subject. NFHs.org>athletics>football>2015-16 rules interpretations.

ABSOLUTELY agree, at least about Lima Beans, and probably a good deal of "and such", but without the Yankees the Red Sox, long ago, would be playing their homegames in a really big, maybe domed, stadium somewhere on the West Coast.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2015, 07:49:42 PM »
Doesn't the rule state "Shall have the authority" ? It doesn't say "Shall correct" I think it leaves a lot of consideration regarding impact.

Our crew depended on me, as Line Judge to "Boom out" down on every play, plus insure the box flipped. Maybe because of my big mouth. "First down! First down!" And watch the box. If the White Hat knew where we were LOS wise it helped on penalty enforcement as well. We just don't have those problems, plus our HL has the box man repeating my instructions as well.
Pardon the NCAA intrusion but the rule change in this rulebook this year created all kinds of "what ifs".  Our language says the down "MAY be corrected."  I verified this with Dr Redding...MAY means MAY , does not mean MUST or WILL.  While I hope my crew never puts us in this situation, I am definitely not going to arbitrarily change the down if it could have a serious immediate impact on the game.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2015, 07:19:28 AM »
I don't think that you are missing anything.  This scenario ranks right up there with the "hash marks bisecting the yard lines".

I expect the NFHS to change this particular ruling before the season is over.

IMHO, this case is intended to illustrate that once the period has officially ended (R, or U if R has small hands) by holding ball high over ones head; errors that were correctable now become uncorrectable. Part of the brief discussion prior to ending the period is : "Do any of you guys or either coach see any errors?" That may be shortened to : "Any screw ups?" - if no then move on. While between the 1st & 2nd or 3rd & 4th periods may provide an easy correction, an issue might arise if the half ended on a screwed up down. An explanation to the coaches of : "Because the half ended on an incorrect 3rd & 8 instead of a 2nd & 8, we'll begin the 2nd half with an untimed down of 2nd & 8 to be followed  - unless there is a penalty or TD - by the traditional kickoff." ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8] ??? :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

Morale of story :

DON'T SCREW UP THE DOWNS
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 07:21:38 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2015, 12:12:27 PM »
To me, this is no different than the crew noticing that the chains were placed wrong when changing ends of the field.  This is something we absolutely need to correct.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2015, 04:02:33 PM »
EVERYBODY noting (writing down) where the ball and chains is supposed to wind up, before anything is moved, and then verifying where they actually wind up should reduce problems.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2015, 09:02:39 AM »
Correcting the chains, if an error was discovered during that series was also on the docket and made it thru committee for a floor vote. In our "campfire" meeting this play was thrown into the flames:

              A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3)  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15; (4) 3 plays later, with 4th & 3 @ B's 8, U ,gaining energy from sNiCkErS sNiCkErS, realizes stakes should have been reset after DOG penalty as RFP had yet to sound; (5) umpire tells this secret to Mr. whitehat; Mr. Whitehat announces........


 FIRST DOWN......
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 09:11:20 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2015, 09:09:40 AM »
It was decided then, and more vocally during the floor vote that this wasn't a door that we wanted to open pi1eOn.

Some may feel we should have skipped the down correction rule,too hEaDbAnG.

1-1-6 gives the referee authority to rule on things not covered.

Sometimes it may be best not to have rule coverage.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2015, 09:13:21 AM »
              A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3)  ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15; (4) 3 plays later, with 4th & 3 @ B's 8, U ,gaining energy from sNiCkErS sNiCkErS, realizes stakes should have been reset after DOG penalty as RFP had yet to sound; (5) umpire tells this secreat to Mr. whitehat; Mr. Whitehat announces........


 FIRST DOWN......

OK, let's make this a little more interesting:

A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3)  DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;

1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down.  But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.

What down is it?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2015, 09:52:50 AM »
OK, let's make this a little more interesting:

A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3)  DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;

1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down.  But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.

What down is it?
We don't have a rule governing errors in chains, so referee would have to rule under the authority of 1-1-6 and attempt to keep his ruling equitable. A ended up moving the ball 16 yards to make a first down as he had to mistakenly gain 15 in lieu of 10 yards. IMHO, WH to B coach : "Ayuh, you're right that they had to gain 15 yards by our mistake instead of 10, but your team couldn't hold 'em. What sez' you griping about nAnA." .....Sometimes it may be best not having rule coverage, just common sense. ;) 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2015, 10:36:43 AM »
What sez' you griping about nAnA."
I'm griping that's it's not now 1st down, it's 4th down.  When they moved to the B9 on first down, they got a new first down, and you messed up the down.  What you called 2nd and 3rd were actually 1st and 2nd.  They ran 3rd down, which you claim awarded them a 1st down.  It's not 1st down, it's 4 down!

Now, please correct the down under the new NFHS down correction procedure.

That's what I'm griping about!


And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2015, 11:44:58 AM »
mistakes and oversights are best corrected by fairly applied, impartial efforts to minimize, or reverse, any damages caused directly by the mistake or oversight, that create minimal consequences of their own.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2015, 11:54:14 AM »
I'm griping that's it's not now 1st down, it's 4th down.  When they moved to the B9 on first down, they got a new first down, and you messed up the down.  What you called 2nd and 3rd were actually 1st and 2nd.  They ran 3rd down, which you claim awarded them a 1st down.  It's not 1st down, it's 4 down!

Now, please correct the down under the new NFHS down correction procedure.

That's what I'm griping about!


And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.

IMHO, the downs proceeded correctly (1..2..3...4....1) but the chains were in error. No rule on correcting chains = 1-1-6..the "no rule" rule. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

Offline Curious

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2015, 01:25:42 PM »
OK, let's make this a little more interesting:

A, in a "hurry up" offense, moves the ball to B's 15 -1st & 10 when : (1) stakes are set; (2) A snaps the ball prior to RFP; (3)  DOG; (3) ball moved back to B's 20 but stakes remain @ 15;

1st down: A runs a play to the B9
"2nd" down: Incomplete pass
"3rd" down: Incomplete pass
"4th" down: A runs to the B4
Chains are reset and WH announces 1st down.  But now the B coach points out the officials error when the chains weren't properly reset after the DOG foul.

What down is it?

Rule 5-1- (CB 5.1.2E Comment) tell us that when a dead ball foul is committed prior to the next ready for play, the penalty is enforced prior to setting the chains; and the subsequent first down is to be 1/10.   So in AB's play:
1. A made the line to gain = = 1/10 for A from B15;
2. DB Illegal snap (PRIOR TO THE READY) moves the ball AND THE CHAINS (if correctly handled) to the B20 = 1/10 for A from B20.  Line to gain should now be the B10
3. So, after A runs the FIRST of the 4 plays that AB lists, they HAVE ALREADY reached the required LTG - regardless of where the chains were improperly set.  AND...

4. CB 5.1.1B tells us that improperly set chains are correctable only until the next legal snap.
5. So AB is correct that after the "discovery" that the chains were improperly set (which now has no bearing), and before the current series of downs has ended, under the new rule, the R has the ability to correct the down error; and it should be 4th and goal for A at the B4.

.....I think :!# hEaDbAnG cRaZy


   

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2015, 01:34:38 PM »

And before anyone gets all upset, I'm trying to facetiously show that this may be either the dumbest rule or the dumbest, most unworkable interpretation to come out of the FED committee since, well, last year.

+1

Offline Eastshire

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2015, 06:48:43 AM »
Rule 5-1- (CB 5.1.2E Comment) tell us that when a dead ball foul is committed prior to the next ready for play, the penalty is enforced prior to setting the chains; and the subsequent first down is to be 1/10.   So in AB's play:
1. A made the line to gain = = 1/10 for A from B15;
2. DB Illegal snap (PRIOR TO THE READY) moves the ball AND THE CHAINS (if correctly handled) to the B20 = 1/10 for A from B20.  Line to gain should now be the B10
3. So, after A runs the FIRST of the 4 plays that AB lists, they HAVE ALREADY reached the required LTG - regardless of where the chains were improperly set.  AND...

4. CB 5.1.1B tells us that improperly set chains are correctable only until the next legal snap.
5. So AB is correct that after the "discovery" that the chains were improperly set (which now has no bearing), and before the current series of downs has ended, under the new rule, the R has the ability to correct the down error; and it should be 4th and goal for A at the B4.

.....I think :!# hEaDbAnG cRaZy


 

I'm not a football ref, but I love to lurk and I love good logic problems. The only information I'm working with here is AB's scenario and Curious's comments on it. Any rules errors are from pure ignorance.

1. Chains are set at the B15 and the line to gain is the B5.
2. DOG foul occurs before the RFP.
3. Line of Scrimmage is properly moved to the B20. Chains are improperly left at the B15. LtG is properly B10, improperly shown as B5.

1/10 @ B20 gains 11 yards to B9 for what should be a first down but is improperly shown as 4 yards short of LtG. (Is this the next legal snap or the down in which the chains were incorrectly set? I'm assuming the later.)

4. The proper down is 1st Down @ B9. The down shown is 2nd. The LtG is properly the goal line but improperly shown as the B5.

1/G (shown as 2/4) is an incomplete pass.

5. The chains are sanitized under 5.1.1B and the LtG changes from the goal line to the 4.

2/4 (shown as 3/4) is an incomplete pass.

3/4 (shown as 4/4) is a gain of 5 yards to B4.

The result of the play is First and Goal, despite the error in downs and incorrectly set chains.



 

Offline prab

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2015, 12:11:48 PM »
.....Sometimes it may be best not having rule coverage, just common sense. ;)

The problem with using the term "common sense" is that it is often not common and/or sensible!  Examples available upon request.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Correcting a down
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2015, 09:44:53 AM »
In 5.1.1B : "Erroneously, the chains are set before enforcement of a dead ball foul instead of following enforcement. Up to what point can this be corrected? RULING: Until the ball is legally snapped. After that point it is too late."  = The correction would have to be made before A snapped the ball from B's 20 w/1st & 15. Once that play has ran, the statute of limitations for correcting the chains has passed.