National Rules Test discussion

[ElvisLives]

24. Answer C is certainly an option of Team B, but I don’t see the option to accept the penalty for illegal touching, 5 yards from the previous spot and repeat the down, which is far more likely to accepted.
Am I missing something?

[GuilhermeCohen]

I guess 9-4-1 is what they want as an answer. Do you agree?

[ElvisLives]

Well, shiver me timbers (or any other cute statement of embarrassment). A pass may be batted in any direction, but only by eligible players. Forgot that last part. So, technically, both illegal touching and illegal batting. Since illegal batting is a 10-yard penalty, plus loss of down, the penalty for the illegal touching will be declined, and the penalty for the illegal batting will be accepted, resulting in A, 2/20, A-10 (answer a).
Just last night, my wife asked me, after 44 seasons and no longer in FBS football (but working Texas HS Football) why I was taking a test I didn’t have to take. This is why. And this is why RefStripes is such an invaluable asset to all officials. We never stop learning, or remembering (or being reminded of) things we’ve forgotten, all in that eternal effort toward perfection, however unachievable it may be.
Thank you!

[Rob S]

...Since illegal batting is a 10-yard penalty, plus loss of down, the penalty for the illegal touching will be declined, and the penalty for the illegal batting will be accepted, resulting in A, 2/20, A-10 (answer a).

Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.

[ElvisLives]

Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.

Nah, doesn’t make me feel better, but thanks for the thought. 😀

Yeah, batting/ kicking are 3 & 1 Enforcements, so the enforcement spot is, indeed, the spot of the foul. ‘b’ is the correct answer.

[peterparsons]

Begin at the beginning. Q.1. What I am struggling to work out from the way the question is written is whether they are driving at c or d being the correct answer.

Is the purpose of this question to test that there are two consequences (loss of a timeout and 15 yards) because of the away team jerseys, or is it to test that only one of them, the 15-yard penalty, is applied after the kickoff, with the timeout being charged beforehand as per AR 1-4-5-I, AR 1-4-7-III and the thread elsewhere on this forum?

[ElvisLives]

Begin at the beginning. Q.1. What I am struggling to work out from the way the question is written is whether they are driving at c or d being the correct answer.

Is the purpose of this question to test that there are two consequences (loss of a timeout and 15 yards) because of the away team jerseys, or is it to test that only one of them, the 15-yard penalty, is applied after the kickoff, with the timeout being charged beforehand as per AR 1-4-5-I, AR 1-4-7-III and the thread elsewhere on this forum?

Yeah, the question is definitely ambiguous with regard to the charged time out. The edited AR 1-4-5-I clearly spells out that the timeout is to be charged immediately after the RFP signal for the kickoff. So, if this has been done correctly, the time out is "in the past," so "d" is, technically, the correct answer. But, if they are testing our knowledge of the timeout component of the penalty, then "c" may be the correct answer.

[blindtxzebra]

Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.

Agreed

[swany11]

Anyone happen to know what question #36 was? Only one I got wrong, so curious if I just hit the wrong button or what.

[peterparsons]

b. 4-2-4-d Exception.

[ElvisLives]

Anyone happen to know what question #36 was? Only one I got wrong, so curious if I just hit the wrong button or what.

That’s the one where the BC is “airborne” (diving) at the right goal line pylon, with the ball in his right hand. The ball itself (in his right hand), crosses the sideline at the B-1, then breaks the plane of the goal line extended, just before he touches the pylon with his left hand (before touching the ground). AR 8-2-1-VIII is similar enough to cover this (in addition to the rule reference provided by PeterParsons). Even though the pylon is included as a part of the ‘extended goal line,’ it is NOT “in the end zone.” To get the extended goal line, the BC must touch the ground in the end zone before touching anything out of bounds. So, in this case, no score. A22 gets progress to the B-1.

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CORRECTION: I said,"...just before he touches the pylon with his left hand..." However, the statement actually indicated that the BC touched the pylon with his left hand when the ball was at the B-1/2 yard line. Big difference. My answer is the same (A's ball at the B-1, where the ball crossed the sideline). But I mis-stated the facts, which do not align with the answer. My apology.

[JasonTX]

That’s the one where the BC is “airborne” (diving) at the right goal line pylon, with the ball in his right hand. The ball itself (in his right hand), crosses the sideline at the B-1, then breaks the plane of the goal line extended, just before he touches the pylon with his left hand (before touching the ground). AR 8-2-1-VIII is similar enough to cover this (in addition to the rule reference provided by PeterParsons). Even though the pylon is included as a part of the ‘extended goal line,’ it is NOT “in the end zone.” To get the extended goal line, the BC must touch the ground in the end zone before touching anything out of bounds. So, in this case, no score. A22 gets progress to the B-1.

Read the AR right after the one you mentioned.  It seems to indicate had the foot hit the pylon it would be a TD.

..."(b) Not a touchdown,  because no part of his body touches either the pylon or the end zone.  In this case the goalline is not extended."

[ElvisLives]

Read the AR right after the one you mentioned.  It seems to indicate had the foot hit the pylon it would be a TD.

..."(b) Not a touchdown,  because no part of his body touches either the pylon or the end zone.  In this case the goalline is not extended."

The difference is WHEN the ball broke the plan of the goal line (extended). In the 2020 Exam example, the ball was still at the B-1/2 when the BC's hand touched the pylon (which is out of bounds), thus making the ball dead at that moment. Since the BC was "airborne," progress is allowed to the point at which the ball crossed the sideline, the B-1. In AR 8-2-1-IX-(a, the BC's progress is stopped inbounds, and, at that moment, the ball had already broken the plane of the goal line (inside the pylon), and was, officially, already dead, and a touchdown. In b), the ball was outside the pylon, and breaking the plane of the goal line extended; but, by rule, a BC only gets the privilege of the "extended" goal line if he touches the ground in the end zone or a pylon (8-2-1-a). Yes, in the AR, had he touched the ground or pylon, with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line extended - touchdown. But he wasn't doing that. And in the exam example, the ball had not broken the plane of the goal line extended before the BC was OB.
This is a complicated rule, and it makes for just about the most difficult call in all of American football, when it happens faster than the blink of an eye.

[blindtxzebra]

Does anyone know the logic behind the answer on question 25?

[ElvisLives]

25. 3/15 @ A-10. Team B trails by 9 points late in the 4th Qtr. A67 clips in the end zone. A17’s pass is then intercepted by B23 and returned for a TD. The clock reads 1:27.
a. Touchdown Team B, penalty declined by rule.
b. Safety, two points for Team B.
c. Team B may choose a safety or the touchdown.
d. Touchdown Team B. The penalty is enforced on the try or succeeding kickoff.
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Working through the question, note that Team B is behind by more than 8 points, late in the 4th period. They need a minimum of two scores to tie or win the game.
Team A committed a 3 & 1 enforcement foul  (clipping) in their own end zone before the change of team possession. Then Team B gains possession and legally scores a 6-point TD.
The penalty for the CLP can be enforced as the 3 & 1 enforcement, resulting in a safety (since fouls by A in their own end zone result in a safety - an 'exception' to the fundamental principal of offensive fouls behind the NZ being penalized at the previous spot). That would give Team B 2-points, reducing their deficit to 7 points, with the potential for good field position following the ensuing free kick by Team A, in hopes of scoring a TD, plus at least a 1-point Try, to tie the game (or, perhaps, score a 2-point Try, and win the game).
Alternatively, Team B can keep the 6-point TD, and enforce the CLP penalty on the Try, or at the succeeding kickoff. At worst, they would have a 3-point deficit, with hope of recovering an 'onside' kickoff, and at scoring at least a 3-point field goal to tie the game (or win the game, if they scored anything on the previous Try).

Given the answer options presented:
a) is not correct - the penalty is NOT declined by rule.
b), as a complete answer, is not correct. There is an option for a safety, or a TD with penalty enforcement on the Try of kickoff.
c) is a correct statement.
d), as a complete answer, is not correct. There is an option to accept the 3 & 1 penalty enforcement, resulting in a 2-point safety for Team B.

So, the only completely correct answer is b).

I didn't submit my answers, so I don't know if the CFO agrees with this or not. I hope so. I hope I understand the rules.

[blindtxzebra]

25. 3/15 @ A-10. Team B trails by 9 points late in the 4th Qtr. A67 clips in the end zone. A17’s pass is then intercepted by B23 and returned for a TD. The clock reads 1:27.
a. Touchdown Team B, penalty declined by rule.
b. Safety, two points for Team B.
c. Team B may choose a safety or the touchdown.
d. Touchdown Team B. The penalty is enforced on the try or succeeding kickoff.
----------------------
Working through the question, note that Team B is behind by more than 8 points, late in the 4th period. They need a minimum of two scores to tie or win the game.
Team A committed a 3 & 1 enforcement foul  (clipping) in their own end zone before the change of team possession. Then Team B gains possession and legally scores a 6-point TD.
The penalty for the CLP can be enforced as the 3 & 1 enforcement, resulting in a safety (since fouls by A in their own end zone result in a safety - an 'exception' to the fundamental principal of offensive fouls behind the NZ being penalized at the previous spot). That would give Team B 2-points, reducing their deficit to 7 points, with the potential for good field position following the ensuing free kick by Team A, in hopes of scoring a TD, plus at least a 1-point Try, to tie the game (or, perhaps, score a 2-point Try, and win the game).
Alternatively, Team B can keep the 6-point TD, and enforce the CLP penalty on the Try, or at the succeeding kickoff. At worst, they would have a 3-point deficit, with hope of recovering an 'onside' kickoff, and at scoring at least a 3-point field goal to tie the game (or win the game, if they scored anything on the previous Try).

Given the answer options presented:
a) is not correct - the penalty is NOT declined by rule.
b), as a complete answer, is not correct. There is an option for a safety, or a TD with penalty enforcement on the Try of kickoff.
c) is a correct statement.
d), as a complete answer, is not correct. There is an option to accept the 3 & 1 penalty enforcement, resulting in a 2-point safety for Team B.

So, the only completely correct answer is b).

I didn't submit my answers, so I don't know if the CFO agrees with this or not. I hope so. I hope I understand the rules.

The "correct" answer is d. Touchdown Team B. The penalty is enforced on the try or succeeding kickoff.

I agree with you as I chose b. Safety, two points for team B. This gives them the ball with the opportunity to potentially tie the game. Using the "correct" answer team B now trails by fewer points, but they have to get the ball back (either onside kick recovery or defensive stop). I do not follow the logic on this answer. It seems like we are trying to predict what the coach of Team B will want. I'll give him his options, but I will not assume what they will want. We all know what it means to assume.

[Snapper]

For #25, the correct answer is D.

The reasoning is because of the touchdown and rule 10-2-5-a-1

"Fifteen-yard penalties for personal fouls and for unsportsmanlike
conduct fouls are enforced on the try, the succeeding kickoff or from
the succeeding spot in extra periods at the option of the scoring team."


In other words, you can't enforce the penalty as a Safety.  It's enforced on the try or kickoff.

[ElvisLives]

For #25, the correct answer is D.

The reasoning is because of the touchdown and rule 10-2-5-a-1

"Fifteen-yard penalties for personal fouls and for unsportsmanlike
conduct fouls are enforced on the try, the succeeding kickoff or from
the succeeding spot in extra periods at the option of the scoring team."

In other words, you can't enforce the penalty as a Safety.  It's enforced on the try or kickoff.

Concur.
I responded this morning without my football 'stuff' with me here at work.
I went home at lunch, and checked my answers that I had written down on the printed questions (some weeks ago).  I, too , had d), and I had scribbled very similar rationale as yours. And, I recall initially thinking "safety or TD with enforcement on the Try/kickoff," but then checking the rule language and realizing, as you say, 10-2-5-1 precludes the option of a safety. Keeps it simpler, that way. Take your points, kickoff (onside), and hope for the best.

Good discussion.