Author Topic: Rule 8-5-2c  (Read 1608 times)

Offline jason

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Rule 8-5-2c
« on: December 01, 2017, 01:32:12 PM »
It is a safety when:
A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Can anyone put the bolded section into a more easily understood scenario?

For instance, if an illegal pass is thrown from the end zone:
A. The 1st half of that rule says we have a safety
B. The 2nd half of that rule says we have a safety?

Why not just write it as "and the penalty is declined" then strike the rest of the bolded section?

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 01:41:42 PM »
Your interpretation is correct.

As to the specific wording used, I don't believe the NFHS (or NCAA, for that matter) employs a professional legal editor type to ensure consistency and clarity in the wording of the rules.

Offline Magician

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 01:50:35 PM »
The bolded part is saying that if a team intentionally grounds the ball in the end zone, the result of the play is a safety regardless of whether you accept or decline the penalty. This could be significant near the end of a half. If declining the penalty would give the defense the ball deep in their opponent's territory, they may chose to decline the penalty (and thus safety) and take over deep in their opponent's territory. With the HS rule this is not an option though.

The likelihood of this happening is slim. Why would a team be passing from their end zone late in a half? If B was ahead or tied, they would likely want the safety regardless so they could take the points.

The NCAA and I believe the NFL rules are different. In NCAA you can decline the penalty and award B 1st and 10 at the previous spot.

Offline jason

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 01:55:02 PM »
The bolded part is saying that if a team intentionally grounds the ball in the end zone, the result of the play is a safety regardless of whether you accept or decline the penalty. This could be significant near the end of a half. If declining the penalty would give the defense the ball deep in their opponent's territory, they may chose to decline the penalty (and thus safety) and take over deep in their opponent's territory. With the HS rule this is not an option though.

The likelihood of this happening is slim. Why would a team be passing from their end zone late in a half? If B was ahead or tied, they would likely want the safety regardless so they could take the points.

The NCAA and I believe the NFL rules are different. In NCAA you can decline the penalty and award B 1st and 10 at the previous spot.

Regarding the above bolded from your comment, this doesn't have to happen at the end of a half. Mid-1st and this happens, you better believe the defensive coach is going to blow an o-ring trying to decline the penalty and take the ball from the previous spot.

[Insert offensive foul here] and incomplete pass? Decline, get ball at previous spot. But not here.

Offline Magician

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 02:04:57 PM »
Regarding the above bolded from your comment, this doesn't have to happen at the end of a half. Mid-1st and this happens, you better believe the defensive coach is going to blow an o-ring trying to decline the penalty and take the ball from the previous spot.

[Insert offensive foul here] and incomplete pass? Decline, get ball at previous spot. But not here.

I agree it could happen any time, but in most cases the defensive team would take the points and the ball. Only if they are down say 3 points with 5 seconds remaining would they want to take the ball rather than the points. The safety would still leave them down 1 and the hope of either a long return or crazy TD play to win the game. If they could get the ball with a chance to kick a short FG to tie they would do that if they had the option. In NFHS they don't have that option. Again. why would a team be passing from their own end zone with 5 seconds left and a 3 point lead?

Offline Ump33

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 02:13:33 PM »
It is a safety when:
A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Can anyone put the bolded section into a more easily understood scenario?

For instance, if an illegal pass is thrown from the end zone:
A. The 1st half of that rule says we have a safety
B. The 2nd half of that rule says we have a safety?

Why not just write it as "and the penalty is declined" then strike the rest of the bolded section?
If the IFP was a "second pass" that was completed ... Declining it would allow the result of the play.

Offline jason

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 06:18:17 AM »
Please humor me.

Isn't the bolded section simply saying that if the penalty is declined, that would create an end of the run spot for IFP penalty enforcement from the end zone?

Therefore...

An incomplete IFP, accepted or declined, leaves the end of the run at the spot of the illegal pass. Safety in both cases.
A complete IFP (1st pass), accepted, results in a safety.
A complete IFP (1st pass), declined, results of the play.
A complete IFP (2nd pass), accepted, results in a safety.
A complete IFP (2nd pass), declined, results of the play.

Agree?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 07:43:46 AM »
An illegal forward pass is a running play....

WHY : if it occurred downfield, it would be where the run ended (spot of IFP). Consider A running for 30 yard gain and then pitching the ball forward. Enforcement from end of run would make more sense than previous spot. Things to remember....
(1) IF said IFP is dropped, it is ruled incomplete - if declined, the ball is placed at end of run.
(2) IF accepted, AND measurement takes you back into old series, the down also counts. IF it doesn't, A gets new series.

IN END ZONE : Where this is a running play, if the penalty is declined, the run ended in the end zone = safety.
NOTE : If time had expired during this excitement, there wouldn't be any untimed down per 3-3-4b(5). 

Offline jason

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 10:21:23 AM »
An illegal forward pass is a running play....

WHY : if it occurred downfield, it would be where the run ended (spot of IFP). Consider A running for 30 yard gain and then pitching the ball forward. Enforcement from end of run would make more sense than previous spot. Things to remember....
(1) IF said IFP is dropped, it is ruled incomplete - if declined, the ball is placed at end of run.
(2) IF accepted, AND measurement takes you back into old series, the down also counts. IF it doesn't, A gets new series.

IN END ZONE : Where this is a running play, if the penalty is declined, the run ended in the end zone = safety.
NOTE : If time had expired during this excitement, there wouldn't be any untimed down per 3-3-4b(5).

Thanks Ralph, but the part of your reply I've bolded is what is causing the confusion for me.

If the penalty is declined on an incompletion, the end of the run that preceded the IFP definitely ended in the EZ. I get that. It's a safety.
But if the IFP is caught, then why doesn't 7-5-3 permit the results of the play if the penalty is declined?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 11:03:42 AM »
IF...it wasn't an incomplete illegal forward pass BUT an intercepted illegal forward pass ,you would certainly want to chat with the offended captain within earshot of his coach. Depending on the game situation , taking the results of the play may be the best choice.

IF...it was a completed illegal forward pass, on 4th down, without the LOG met; a similar choice could also exist. Same would be occur if the receiver then fumbled after and was recovered by the enemy.

Think that covers all the bases :).

Offline VA Official

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 11:10:45 AM »
Thanks Ralph, but the part of your reply I've bolded is what is causing the confusion for me.

If the penalty is declined on an incompletion, the end of the run that preceded the IFP definitely ended in the EZ. I get that. It's a safety.
But if the IFP is caught, then why doesn't 7-5-3 permit the results of the play if the penalty is declined?

Ralph did an excellent job explaining it as usual, but I believe if you had read how 7-5-3 is currently worded, it answers your question.

NFHS 7-5-3: If the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted) of having the ball put in play as determined by the action which followed the catch.

That's the current wording in the rules book, and I think it's worded very clearly. The only "situation which leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass" (taken from 8-5-2c) is the situation in which the IFP was incomplete, per 7-5-3.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:14:12 AM by VA Official »

Offline jason

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Re: Rule 8-5-2c
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 02:05:58 PM »
Ralph did an excellent job explaining it as usual, but I believe if you had read how 7-5-3 is currently worded, it answers your question.

NFHS 7-5-3: If the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted) of having the ball put in play as determined by the action which followed the catch.

That's the current wording in the rules book, and I think it's worded very clearly. The only "situation which leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass" (taken from 8-5-2c) is the situation in which the IFP was incomplete, per 7-5-3.

Thanks for the reply. The poor wording on this one, and the admitted odd scenario of a safety after penalty declination, is easily twisted. Add in the fact that we're likely to see it maybe once or twice in a career (pointed out by Magician), and it's even more odd.

Your logic is how I ultimately ended up, but didn't completely see how to breakdown Ralph's reply with what else I was thinking.