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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: J12 on October 23, 2013, 09:00:03 AM
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I saw a game a few weeks ago where a team had the game won and decided to have the QB kneel down to run out the clock. However, they did this from the usual shotgun (or pistol) formation. The ref immediately threw the flag when the QB kneeled down after recieving the snap in this formation. Does the QB have to line up under center to kneel down on the play?
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Sounds like the R might have been confused with the IG exception requiring the QB to receive a hand-to-hand snap if he wants to spike it.
No such restriction on the "victory" formation. It's not usually shotgun, since shotgun increases the risk of a muffed snap and backs the offense up farther each down. But it's not illegal.
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Exactly how the Atlanta Falcons ended the game against Tampa Bay on Sunday.
Since the Bucs have been known to still try to attack on these plays, the Falcons had Ryan take the snap in a shotgun to protect him from getting hit. Perfectly legal in all codes.
What I have wanted to do in these situations is have our QB take the snap while kneeling behind the center. As soon as he possesses the ball, the play is dead. Can't find any rule that would prohibit it.
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What I have wanted to do in these situations is have our QB take the snap while kneeling behind the center. As soon as he possesses the ball, the play is dead. Can't find any rule that would prohibit it.
We have the shotgun and the pistol; but what do you call that formation...the "pop-gun"?
;D
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AB I don't think anything in the rules would prohibit taking the snap on the knee as long as the snap requirements are met, but I could see your QB getting injured by being bent backwards when the center gets hit and pushed back into the QB. I don't know if he could move out of the way from his knees like he does taking the snap and stepping back to kneel. I don't know if the WH could stop the play fast enough to protect the QB from the initial line charge or if the D could stop before contact was made.
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I saw a game a few weeks ago where a team had the game won and decided to have the QB kneel down to run out the clock. However, they did this from the usual shotgun (or pistol) formation. The ref immediately threw the flag when the QB kneeled down after recieving the snap in this formation. Does the QB have to line up under center to kneel down on the play?
Had it happen last week. No flag.
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Exactly how the Atlanta Falcons ended the game against Tampa Bay on Sunday.
Since the Bucs have been known to still try to attack on these plays, the Falcons had Ryan take the snap in a shotgun to protect him from getting hit. Perfectly legal in all codes.
What I have wanted to do in these situations is have our QB take the snap while kneeling behind the center. As soon as he possesses the ball, the play is dead. Can't find any rule that would prohibit it.
Bucs attacking on these plays is really getting them far, eh? Bush.
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Which brings us to the much discussed question of how we as officials handle the kneel down situation. If A is leading by 9 or more or trailing and just wants the game over we will tell the defense "He's taking a knee don't do anything stupid, dirty etc." If A is leading by 8 or less we don't say anything to the defense but I tell the QB to go down to the knee as fast as he can and I will try to protect him as best I can. And even still we'll have QBs drop back and stand there until a defensive player is almost on top of him and then drop to his knee. Of course if the defender hits him the coach wants a PF because he was taking a knee even though the hit wouldn't qualify as a PF if he had just slipped.
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Which brings us to the much discussed question of how we as officials handle the kneel down situation. If A is leading by 9 or more or trailing and just wants the game over we will tell the defense "He's taking a knee don't do anything stupid, dirty etc." If A is leading by 8 or less we don't say anything to the defense but I tell the QB to go down to the knee as fast as he can and I will try to protect him as best I can. And even still we'll have QBs drop back and stand there until a defensive player is almost on top of him and then drop to his knee. Of course if the defender hits him the coach wants a PF because he was taking a knee even though the hit wouldn't qualify as a PF if he had just slipped.
Here we go again:
You tell the defense he's taking a knee. Now he doesn't. Now what?
Or he fumbles the ball. You've told the defense he's taking a knee.
Don't tell the defense what the offense is going to do! EVER!!!
If you have to say something, and I don't think you do, say something like:
Guys, let's play smart.
or
IF he takes a knee, let's not have any late hits.
If you've gotten to this point of the game, they know what they should or shouldn't do. Squeeze in, be ready to hit the whistle, and keep officiating.
Otherwise, just end the game. You've already told them you aren't going to let them play anyway.
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For what its worth we are not telling them not to play, just don't do anything stupid. Yes i know in this case thats a distinction without much difference. And if the QB takes off running I'm going to have an IW. Better for me to take the heat for a mistake than to allow them to get away with something like this. If he fumbles - play on. Again we only say something when the score is such that B can't tie or win game no matter what happens.
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Again we only say something when the score is such that B can't tie or win game no matter what happens.
Then why snap the ball at all?
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It would be nice if that were an option. I guess its kind of like actually having to throw four balls for an intentional walk instead of just sending the batter to first base.
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I got to agree with AB on this one.
A couple of weeks ago, A is up by 14 with about a minute left. They decided to kneel. B's D line crashes in on every play. All the play be B was legal. If I tell B that A is going to kneel and the A players believe that B will not attack then ease up there is possibility of A players getting hurt.
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Annnnnnd as previously stated by me, the most I will ever say is "Be smart, guys". That is ambiguous yet covers all ends of the spectrum.
False fouls and intentional IW's - might as well officiate TV wrestling or NASCAR.
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I, too, am toward AB's end of the spectrum on this question.
My umpire says, "be smart," and I say nothing. The only "fudge" I use is blowing it dead when the QB lowers his knee within an inch of the ground, trying to get a couple extra seconds off the clock. Somehow, it always looks to me as if he did in fact touch the ground!
I like the NCAA rule, where simulating taking a knee makes the ball.
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"Offense, keep blocking. Defense, don't do anything stupid."
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This would be much simpler if the offense didn't tell us what they were going to do.
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I agree with AB, but I wish that more of his coaching brethren also agreed, it would make it easier to manage this play. It seems the majority of the coaches want us to be the protectors once they have told us they are taking a knee.
Our crew was taught a valuable lesson a few years ago. There was only one play left in the first half, A had the ball at midfield and was down by a touchdown. A's coach tells us they are taking a knee to wind out the clock for the first half. We relayed this information to the defense. Then the coach changes his mind and tells us he is not taking a knee. We had confusion on the field. Thankfully, A did not make it to the line to gain and the clock did run out.
In retrospect, we could have flagged the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. After that episode our crew has decided to never relay to the defense, "they are taking a knee" unless we have a very lopsided score. We now use phrases like, "play smart if he takes a knee".
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Annnnnnd as previously stated by me, the most I will ever say is "Be smart, guys". That is ambiguous yet covers all ends of the spectrum.
+1. "Guys, don't do anything stupid. Be smart."
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In retrospect, we could have flagged the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct.
Under what rule? This is why I say, "Stay out of it."
It's not your job to protect my QB, that's up to my line. It's also not your job to tell my defense not to play. Your job is to officiate the game as it comes to you. Make things easier for yourself, if the offense tells you they are taking a knee, ignore them, and just keep officiating. If the QB takes a knee, hit the whistle. If the defense does something stupid, flag them, or even eject, because at that point, it's probably flagrant.
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I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.
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I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.
How?
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How?
Don't know yet, but 'spect I'll know come next Ground Hog's Day.Ain't a secret that ya' have to keep, like new rules stuff ;so I let you guys know soon after I know. :) I'll assume it will be along the lines that many of you suggested, that our job isn't to stop the kids from playing, but to encourage good sportsmanship.
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Under what rule?
Section ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the
referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.
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Section ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the
referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.
There's no travesty. That's the kind of call that ends careers, or at least any post season hopes.
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What I have wanted to do in these situations is have our QB take the snap while kneeling behind the center. As soon as he possesses the ball, the play is dead. Can't find any rule that would prohibit it.
There isn't one. I've often wondered why this isn't has it's always done.
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There's no travesty.
Coach of Team A to LJ, "We are taking a knee, did you hear me we are taking a knee".
LJ, "I heard you coach".
Coach, "Did you tell the other officials? We need some protection."
LJ to R, "Team A is taking a knee".
R to U, "Have 'em play smart, they tell us they are taking a knee."
U to Team B, "Play smart, they are taking a knee".
Coach of Team A yells a play change to his QB and yells to the LJ, "We are not taking a knee".
Team A takes the snap and acts as if he is taking a knee and then he runs around the end for a score.
Coach of Team B is now going ballistic, "You told us they were taking a knee."
9.5 If the crew chooses to flag Team A for unsportsmanlike conduct, then 9.5 Travesty is the rule that supports their decision.
AB, In a perfect world we should not tell them they are taking a knee. Most officials (HS to YFB) across the country, when asked by a coach, convey this as a common courtesy for safety. When a coach or player takes advantage of us to create an unfair advantage over their opponent, then I do believe a travesty has been committed.
Ralph, Thanks for addressing this with the NFHS!
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Coach of Team A to LJ, "We are taking a knee, did you hear me we are taking a knee".
LJ, "I heard you coach".
Then add: "You had better tell your offense to keep blocking, as the defense will still be playing."
I still think the best answer is to ignore him altogether.
If you need to say anything to the defense, just say something like, "Let's play smart, guys." There is never any need to get into the specifics of the play. If his QB needs "protecting", it's up to his linemen to do it.
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Team A takes the snap and acts as if he is taking a knee and then he runs around the end for a score.
Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?
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Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?
no
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Is there any rule in NFHS that says the snap receiving back is considered down if he fakes taking a knee?
No. But you know, my eyes aren't that good, and if he "fakes" it I usually see that knee touch the ground! :)
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As sportsmanship is (Was) sometimes lacking in these adult amateur leagues that we officiate in Germany - There are sometimes so real hot heads who think there are no rules in the game - there were some problems with players taking cheap shots on kneel-down plays. The players would have been ejected, but there was the real danger of injuries (jumping in peoples knees and stuff)
Our area has instigated (started before my time) that if O declares they will take a knee that the D is not to charge. Hard contact by a D player will be penalized, probably by ejection. Running a play from O would be whistled dead and flagged as USC.
That is how they want it here, so we do it like that. I realize it is not supported by the NCAA rulebook, but I guess you could call it a local addition.
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As sportsmanship is (Was) sometimes lacking in these adult amateur leagues that we officiate in Germany - There are sometimes so real hot heads who think there are no rules in the game - there were some problems with players taking cheap shots on kneel-down plays. The players would have been ejected, but there was the real danger of injuries (jumping in peoples knees and stuff)
Our area has instigated (started before my time) that if O declares they will take a knee that the D is not to charge. Hard contact by a D player will be penalized, probably by ejection. Running a play from O would be whistled dead and flagged as USC.
That is how they want it here, so we do it like that. I realize it is not supported by the NCAA rulebook, but I guess you could call it a local addition.
If they are going to go to all that trouble of changing the rule, why not just eliminate the snap all together?
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Here we go again:
Don't tell the defense what the offense is going to do! EVER!!!
AB, I know that I did edit a lot but i want to focus on this one statement.
Your QB is the GA player of the year, a D1 school has signed him up. Looking in my crystal ball he will have a stunning 4 years in college, he will be the first round pick in the NFL draft. After a fantastic 14 year career in the NFL including 3 Super Bowl wins he is elected to the Hall of Fame.
Now how did he get there,
It's the last play of your game in the state finals, all you need is one kneel and you are state champs!
Your QB and the best place kicker in the nation (due to your coaching) is ready to tiake the snap.
The ball is snapped and as the QB is taking that last kneel down, a linebacker crashes into him and breaks his back. He will never walk again. That college and pro career I recounted above is gone, all because the officials did not tell the defense they were taking a knee.
Yes I know my creative writing skills may not be the best what if it did happen, somewhere...
I do agree with you, the officials should not have to say anything, it should be the coaches that come up with some way to fix this situation.
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"The ball is snapped and as the QB is taking that last kneel down, a linebacker crashes into him and breaks his back. He will never walk again. That college and pro career I recounted above is gone, all because the officials did not tell the defense they were taking a knee."
Horse $#!]
Was the defense the state school for the blind?
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And how did this kid get to be that good of a QB with that poor of an offensive line in front of him?
Look, if the QB takes a knee, it's not up to the defense to let up from playing legal football. It's up to the offense to keep playing. If the coach tells you he's taking a knee, then tell him that his offensive line better not quit playing.
And if me All-Everything QB was that good, I would send in the JV running back to take the snap and get on the ground.
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Presto! See the end of the UGA - FL game?
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Perhaps others involved in scholastic level sports don't have access to the "Prerequisits for good Officiating", contained in the "Basic Phiolosophy & Principles" of the NFHS Officials Manual, which advise;
"In addition to a complete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise.
Football is a game played played by physically sound athletes blocking and tackling one another.
At times, the emotions of players, coaches and crowds run high, and game officials must control themselves in order to provide necessary leadership.
Game officials must have a football sense that supercedes the technical application of the rules so that the game goes smoothly.
The protection and safety of the player is paramount and with this there can be no compromise."
With all that in mind, perhaps the best way to deal with the ending circumstances of a particular game, is to leave some judgment in the hands of the Referee, who has dealt with that particular game, the participants and the emotions, rather than try and define a "One size fits all situations alike" scenario.
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Why even require the snap if some of you are basically telling the defense not to play the down. Let's just declare it over and game over if the defense doesn't have timeouts. It's like an intentional walk in NFHS baseball. The pitcher doesn't have to throw 4 balls to put the batter on base. He just tells the Umpire to put him on. Football can have a similar rule. No need to snap it, just allow the play clock to run down to 24 seconds and then pretend as if they did snap it and run X number of seconds to run off and then make the ball ready for play again until the game is over.
Or. Just snap the ball and have your linemen block for you. I have seen my share of muffed snaps in these situations and luckily for the defense they were coming in hard and have recovered the ball on some of those to set up a potential game winning play for themselves. Imagine if I would have told them not to do anything they would have never had that chance.
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I fully agree with JasonTX. It is not our job to tell the players what they should do. If the difference is more than eight points and the offense can run the time out by taking a knee, I do think a defense coach is pretty stupid to have his line rush in, but dealing with that is up to the coaches and their employers. If the difference is less than nine, the defense has a valid reason to rush in, and the offense just has to be able to deal with that.
Any illegal action after the ball becomes dead will obviously be penalized and will be considered flagrant easier than in other situations.
Obviously your rules makers can change the rules such as James outlined below, but in those situations I'd rather have the rules changed so that if the offense can run the game clock down with just the 25 second play clocks (40 for us NCAAish folks), then the game is immediately over. No reason to fool around on the field. This is actually how I deal with lower level games where there is no visible game clock and the score difference is large.
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I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.
Ralph,
Did the Officials Manual Committee in fact address this issue for the 2014 - 2015 edition?
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It was on their agenda and I sat in at the start of their meeting (1 PM) but had to leave before it came up to catch a flight. Getting back to Bangor was more important then to hear the "victory formation" discussed but I did remind the chairman of the Game Officials Manual Committee that we wanted advice on it. I'm sure it'll be addressed.
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the "victory formation"
Some of the spread teams I call don't even have such a thing. They line their QB up in the pistol no matter the situation. I think it's a little crazy because one never knows when that next errant snap will occur but they are apparently willing to live with it.
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Some of the spread teams I call don't even have such a thing. They line their QB up in the pistol no matter the situation. I think it's a little crazy because one never knows when that next errant snap will occur but they are apparently willing to live with it.
Well, OSU had a problem back when Brandon Weeden was a 'young' QB there. 2010 against Troy and up by 3. He took a snap under center in the victory formation and fumbled it for a turnover. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQz4BFbgARI
They very luckily got the ball back on the next play. They then took two snaps from a shotgun victory formation and kept doing so while Weeden was the QB. He just didn't ever practice under center snaps in that offense and they had the yardage to play with.
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Same as many others on here, I say nothing to the defense.
I tell the offense that they had better keep blocking for their quarterback because the defense is still playing.
Usually elicits a "yeah guys" from the QB.
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There's no travesty. That's the kind of call that ends careers, or at least any post season hopes.
Fortunately, the Rules Makers have declined to include a definition of "Travesty" in Rule 2, leaving that determination to "the eye of the beholder", who in this situation would be the Referee, to whom, Rule 1-1-6 provides, "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.", which, by and large, has worked extremely well for over 100 years.
When "it ain't broke, there really isn't any need to fix anything".
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Fortunately, the Rules Makers have declined to include a definition of "Travesty" in Rule 2, leaving that determination to "the eye of the beholder", who in this situation would be the Referee, to whom, Rule 1-1-6 provides, "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.", which, by and large, has worked extremely well for over 100 years.
When "it ain't broke, there really isn't any need to fix anything".
And even more fortunately, we have a state association that if they got wind of an official with such poor judgment, one that decided to make up his own rules, they would be sure his career would include no playoffs, and his association would be sure he was working a lot of JV football before getting a Varsity game again.
Just because a Referee can "play god" doesn't mean he should.
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Just because a Referee can "play god" doesn't mean he should.
Agreed, but this has nothing to do with anyone "playing God". If there is any effort to imitate divinity, it would either be a misguided student athlete, who would hopefully be seriously repremanded by his Coach, or Heaven forbid, it was actually a Coach promoting such a willful, unproductive and inappropriate deception, it might simply be an honest arbiter concerned about the integrity of a game abiding by his charter and his interpretation of the authority specified in NFHS:1-1-6.
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From the Ohio Gold Book "Victory Formation Mechanics
A. Definition Winning team HC informs officials we are "going to take a knee". Opponent is out of team time-outs or tell Wing that we will not use them. Winning team is ahead by 9 or more points. Or, losing team says we are okay with them taking a knee.
B. CREW Officials pinch in close. R/U inform A & B that A will take a knee-nothing rough. QB has protection once his team indicates he will take a knee. R inform QB he MUST take a knee IMMEDIATELY-no fakes. If he fakes & does not take a knee it is an Unfair Act.
C. CREW Ask winning team HC if his team will take a knee, score/time dictates this. If yes Wing informs losing team HC. Inform all players loudly.
Anyone familiar with the Ohio Gold Book will understand that Ohio has developed many mechanics unique to Ohio that are often a hybrid of NCAA/NFL/NFHS mechanics.
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From the Ohio Gold Book "Victory Formation Mechanics
A. Definition Winning team HC informs officials we are "going to take a knee". Opponent is out of team time-outs or tell Wing that we will not use them. Winning team is ahead by 9 or more points. Or, losing team says we are okay with them taking a knee.
B. CREW Officials pinch in close. R/U inform A & B that A will take a knee-nothing rough. QB has protection once his team indicates he will take a knee. R inform QB he MUST take a knee IMMEDIATELY-no fakes. If he fakes & does not take a knee it is an Unfair Act.
C. CREW Ask winning team HC if his team will take a knee, score/time dictates this. If yes Wing informs losing team HC. Inform all players loudly.
Anyone familiar with the Ohio Gold Book will understand that Ohio has developed many mechanics unique to Ohio that are often a hybrid of NCAA/NFL/NFHS mechanics.
Good grief.
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Could really be called the Ohio God Book. ;)
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Just the messenger.
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Just the messenger.
Oh, I know that. Just saying... (and I'm guessing you don't disagree).
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Actually on this particular item I appreciate having something like this in writing if this is the direction the state wants us to go. Generally it appears that in the past the two choices to handle the kneel down were to use this technique but with no support, or respond "so what" when informed A was taking a knee. In the past if a crew was using this technique and the QB faked taking a knee we had no support for anything other than an inadvertant whistle (and we all so love those). Also I appreciate having the word IMMEDIATELY emphasized. In the past when A would announce to everyone in the stadium they were taking a knee we would inform B to "play smart". But then the QB would stand there until a B player got close before going to his knee, just asking to legally get creamed (actually just contacted, for it to remain legal), at least now Ohio teams should know they need to IMMEDIATELY go to the knee.
What makes our situation with the Gold Book "interesting" is we are a dual state board. One state is very traditional and slow to change, the other state is Ohio. So mechanically we have to adjust on a weekly basis. Some of the Ohio changes I feel are really beneficial. I know in our area Ohio was the first to suggest reversing which wing released on punts (so the LJ looking at the down box could stay home and rule on whether the punt crossed the LOS) now we are doing that in both states. When the "Book" first came out it felt like some of the mechanics changes were an attempt to shove a 7 man crew square peg into a 5 man crew round hole mechanic but as time has gone on have gotten used to them. Still not a huge fan of Umpire under on FGs or announcing fouling player's number but "When in Columbus (or at least their territory), you know the rest.
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Has anyone seen a copy of the 2014-2015 Officials Manual yet? If so, what does it have to say about the "kneel down" play? We seem to be at the end of the pony express route and generally get our rule books, case books and officials manuals a bit later than many other areas of the country.
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what does it have to say about the "kneel down" play?
Nothing
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HLinNC, have you seen a copy of the 2014-2015 Officials Manual? If so and it says nothing about this topic, then we have been misled. If on the other hand you haven't seen a copy (not mentioned in your post) please consider the following:
[/quote]I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.
It was on their agenda and I sat in at the start of their meeting (1 PM) but had to leave before it came up to catch a flight. Getting back to Bangor was more important then to hear the "victory formation" discussed but I did remind the chairman of the Game Officials Manual Committee that we wanted advice on it. I'm sure it'll be addressed.
Twice previously, on this thread, we were informed that the Officials Manual Committee would have something to say about this topic for the 2014-2015 edition. I asked if anyone had seen it yet. If I have interpreted you correctly, you essentially said that there is nothing more that needs to be said about this topic, implying that your previous posts constitute the standard by which all others will be judged and therefore should have ended the need for further discussion. I beg to differ!
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The second paragraph in Ralph's second quote in my last post included is my own. I do not know which button I pushed to get included in his quote. I did not intend to put Ralph in the middle of a good old fashioned ________contest. Mea Culpa!!
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Let me be more clear:
I did not see anything about a QB kneel down play in the 2014-15 NFHS Officials Manual that I received from my state office two weeks ago.
Who is we and why were they misled?
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Beyond the technical application of the Rules, the NFHS Game Officials Manual afixes the responsibility that, "The protection and welfare of the player is paramount and with this there can be no compromise." and instructs the game official, "keep the game moving, using accepted methods to maintain a safe contest while ensuring competitive fairness.".
The Officials Manual charges officials, "In addition to acomplete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise"
At times the ability to prevent needless things from happening can weigh a lot heavier than the ability to properly penalize such things that have already happened as relates to career longevity and post season assignments.
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Let me be more clear:
I did not see anything about a QB kneel down play in the 2014-15 NFHS Officials Manual that I received from my state office two weeks ago.
Who is we and why were they misled?
Last summer I approached our Rules Committee Chair and requested that it be placed on the Manual Committee's docket - it was :). At this year's meeting I reminded the Manual Committee's Chair that it was on his docket - he knew :) :). I had to leave Windy Indy and return to Balmy Bangor, I left before they got to it :) :( :o >:(. I then told all my friends (you guys included) that it would be in this year's edition - it wasn't pi1eOn hEaDbAnG. My apologizes for the confusion on this pray:; :!# as I'm as confused probably more than you. I plan on bring it up at the conference call to be held shortly. My concern on the lack of direction on this issue as that we all take our own direction -as evidenced by the length of this post and an earlier post on NFHS website that drew 85+ responses.IMHO, when QB or coach tells : "We're taking a knee"; I'll remind them : "They game's still going, tell your blockers to be ready to protect you/ your QB". To the defense you may wish to say : "You guys have played a good clean game, let's end it with class" or "Who do you guys play next week?"-this gets their mind off of this loss and gently reminds them to be cool or they might not be playing next week. ;) We have no rule support for an "advertant" inadvertent whistle but we do have rule support for targeting a defenseless player. My apologizes for getting your hopes up on this and I ,too, was disappointed. I'll let you know what I find as to when/how this will be addressed. ^flag
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"Be smart, fellows. Don't do anything silly here."
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Thanks for trying, but as we all know, "You can lead a horse to water, then it's up to the horse.". It could be helpful to have "rule support", for what ultimately boils down to common sense and practical, but sometimes you just have to do what's right, and makes sense, whether you have support, or not.
This question is a lot less about following a set protocol, or violating some imaginary universal precedent, as it it is about safely concluding a particular, spirited, perhaps even emotionally charged, physical contest between groups of teenage student athletes, who at times are prone to risk exposing themselves to potentially serious, unanticipated consequences by not thinking through their thoughts before acting on them.
Choosing to avoid taking prudent cautions, even unauthorized ones, AT TIMES, can produce far more serious risk, than allowing situations to unfold without reasonable warnings.
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The Chair of the Manual Committee advised me that it was discussed at this year's meeting but the feeling was this was covered in the 2012-2013 Point Of Emphasis : Sportsmanship - End Of Game Management (p.86). :sTiR: Before you rant, guys, pi1eOn remember that I'm only the messanger :).
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"Ref we taking a knee". Ok, but tell your line to block because the game is not over.
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"Ref we taking a knee". Ok, but tell your line to block because the game is not over.
LJ - Glad to see you on the forum, been here since the NFHS one crashed and haven't seen it down once. Gave Tommy this website address, you may want to prod him to join. tiphat:
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Under what rule? This is why I say, "Stay out of it."
It's not your job to protect my QB, that's up to my line. It's also not your job to tell my defense not to play. Your job is to officiate the game as it comes to you. Make things easier for yourself, if the offense tells you they are taking a knee, ignore them, and just keep officiating. If the QB takes a knee, hit the whistle. If the defense does something stupid, flag them, or even eject, because at that point, it's probably flagrant.
I agree completely.
I will go one step farther - I will kill the play if, after telling me he is taking a knee, the quarterback so much as dips. That's it - he's down, and the play is over.
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I will go one step farther - I will kill the play if, after telling me he is taking a knee, the quarterback so much as dips. That's it - he's down, and the play is over.
Oh no, mods can we just kill this one now????????
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Oh no, mods can we just kill this one now????????
Agreed, this poor horse already died a brutal death. LOL
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Agreed, this poor horse already died a brutal death.
And dug up and re-buried. Looks like the possum carcass my dog once presented to me as a gift.
deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:
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Happy to oblige.