Author Topic: QB Kneel Down At Game End  (Read 40158 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2014, 09:18:27 AM »
Could really be called the Ohio God Book.  ;)
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

wvoref

  • Guest
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2014, 09:22:17 AM »
Just the messenger.

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2014, 09:29:13 AM »
Just the messenger.
Oh, I know that. Just saying... (and I'm guessing you don't disagree).
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

wvoref

  • Guest
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2014, 10:08:39 AM »
Actually on this particular item I appreciate having something like this in writing if this is the direction the state wants us to go.  Generally it appears that in the past the two choices to handle the kneel down were to use this technique but with no support, or respond "so what" when informed A was taking a knee.  In the past if a crew was using this technique and the QB faked taking a knee we had no support for anything other than an inadvertant whistle (and we all so love those).  Also I appreciate having the word IMMEDIATELY emphasized.  In the past when A would announce to everyone in the stadium they were taking a knee we would inform B to "play smart".  But then the QB would stand there until a B player got close before going to his knee, just asking to legally get creamed (actually just contacted, for it to remain legal), at least now Ohio teams should know they need to IMMEDIATELY go to the knee.

What makes our situation with the Gold Book "interesting" is we are a dual state board.  One state is very traditional and slow to change, the other state is Ohio.  So  mechanically we have to adjust on a weekly basis.  Some of the Ohio changes I feel are really beneficial.  I know in our area Ohio was the first to suggest reversing which wing released on punts (so the LJ looking at the down box could stay home and rule on whether the punt crossed the LOS) now we are doing that in both states.  When the "Book" first came out it felt like some of the mechanics changes were an attempt to shove a 7 man crew square peg into a 5 man crew round hole mechanic but as time has gone on have gotten used to them.  Still not a huge fan of Umpire under on FGs or announcing fouling player's number but "When in Columbus (or at least their territory), you know the rest.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 10:10:32 AM by wvoref »

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 669
  • FAN REACTION: +37/-47
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2014, 02:38:06 PM »
Has anyone seen a copy of the 2014-2015 Officials Manual yet?  If so, what does it have to say about the "kneel down" play?  We seem to be at the end of the pony express route and generally get our rule books, case books and officials manuals a bit later than many other areas of the country. 

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2014, 02:34:22 PM »
Quote
what does it have to say about the "kneel down" play?


Nothing

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 669
  • FAN REACTION: +37/-47
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2014, 03:24:56 PM »
HLinNC, have you seen a copy of the 2014-2015 Officials Manual?  If so and it says nothing about this topic, then we have been misled.  If on the other hand you haven't seen a copy (not mentioned in your post) please consider the following:

[/quote]
I had requested that the Officials Mannual Committee address this issue, and they will in the 2014-15 edition.

It was on their agenda and I sat in at the start of their meeting (1 PM) but had to leave before it came up to catch a flight. Getting back to Bangor was more important then to hear the "victory formation" discussed but I did remind the chairman of the Game Officials Manual Committee that we wanted advice on it. I'm sure it'll be addressed.

Twice previously, on this thread, we were informed that the Officials Manual Committee would have something to say about this topic for the 2014-2015 edition.  I asked if anyone had seen it yet.  If I have interpreted you correctly, you essentially said that there is nothing more that needs to be said about this topic, implying that your previous posts constitute the standard by which all others will be judged and therefore should have ended the need for further discussion.    I beg to differ!

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 669
  • FAN REACTION: +37/-47
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2014, 03:29:03 PM »
The second paragraph in  Ralph's second quote in my last post included is my own.  I do not know which button I pushed to get included in his quote.  I did not intend to put Ralph in the middle of a good old fashioned ________contest.  Mea Culpa!!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 04:43:44 PM by prab »

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2014, 06:42:43 PM »
Let me be more clear:

I did not see anything about a QB kneel down play in the 2014-15 NFHS Officials Manual that I received from my state office two weeks ago.

Who is we and why were they misled?

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2014, 12:52:05 PM »
Beyond the technical application of the Rules, the NFHS Game Officials Manual afixes the responsibility that, "The protection and welfare of the player is paramount and with this there can be no compromise." and instructs the game official, "keep the game moving, using accepted methods to maintain a safe contest while ensuring competitive fairness.". 

The Officials Manual charges officials, "In addition to acomplete mastery of the rules, game officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise"

At times the ability to prevent needless things from happening can weigh a lot heavier than the ability to properly penalize such things that have already happened as relates to career longevity and post season assignments.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2014, 08:13:28 AM »
Let me be more clear:

I did not see anything about a QB kneel down play in the 2014-15 NFHS Officials Manual that I received from my state office two weeks ago.

Who is we and why were they misled?
Last summer I approached our Rules Committee Chair and requested that it be placed on the Manual Committee's docket - it was :). At this year's meeting I reminded the Manual Committee's Chair that it was on his docket - he knew :) :). I  had to leave Windy Indy and return to Balmy Bangor, I left before they got to it :) :( :o >:(. I then told all my friends (you guys included) that it would be in this year's edition - it wasn't pi1eOn hEaDbAnG. My apologizes for the confusion on this pray:; :!# as I'm as confused probably more than you. I plan on bring it up at the conference call to be held shortly. My concern on the lack of direction on this issue as that we all take our own direction -as evidenced by the length of this post and an earlier post on NFHS website that drew 85+ responses.IMHO, when QB or coach tells : "We're taking a knee"; I'll remind them : "They game's still going, tell your blockers to be ready to protect you/ your QB". To the defense you may wish to say : "You guys have played a good clean game, let's end it with class" or "Who do you guys play next week?"-this gets their mind off of this loss and gently reminds them to be cool or they might not be playing next week. ;) We have no rule support for an "advertant" inadvertent whistle but we do have rule support for targeting a defenseless player.  My apologizes for getting your hopes up on this and I ,too, was disappointed. I'll let you know what I find as to when/how this will be addressed. ^flag
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 10:08:35 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2428
  • FAN REACTION: +90/-14
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2014, 11:00:04 AM »
"Be smart, fellows.  Don't do anything silly here."

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 4727
  • FAN REACTION: +341/-919
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2014, 11:24:33 AM »
Thanks for trying, but as we all know, "You can lead a horse to water, then it's up to the horse.".  It could  be helpful to have "rule support", for what ultimately boils down to common sense and practical, but sometimes you just have to do what's right, and makes sense, whether you have support, or not.

This question is a lot less about following a set protocol, or violating some imaginary universal precedent, as it it is about safely concluding a particular, spirited, perhaps even emotionally charged, physical contest between groups of teenage student athletes, who at times are prone to risk exposing themselves to potentially serious, unanticipated consequences by not thinking through their thoughts before acting on them.

Choosing to avoid taking prudent cautions, even unauthorized ones, AT TIMES, can produce far more serious risk, than allowing situations to unfold without reasonable warnings. 

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2014, 08:27:52 AM »
The Chair of the Manual Committee advised me that it was discussed at this year's meeting but the feeling was this was covered in the 2012-2013 Point Of Emphasis : Sportsmanship - End Of Game Management (p.86).  :sTiR: Before you rant, guys, pi1eOn remember that I'm only the messanger :).

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2940
  • FAN REACTION: +134/-1004
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2014, 06:04:55 PM »
"Ref we taking a knee". Ok, but tell your line to block because the game is not over.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4654
  • FAN REACTION: +864/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2014, 12:17:39 PM »
"Ref we taking a knee". Ok, but tell your line to block because the game is not over.
LJ - Glad to see you on the forum, been here since the NFHS one crashed and haven't seen it down once. Gave Tommy this website address, you may want to prod him to join. tiphat:

Jim D.

  • Guest
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2014, 12:58:53 PM »
Under what rule?  This is why I say, "Stay out of it."

It's not your job to protect my QB, that's up to my line.  It's also not your job to tell my defense not to play.  Your job is to officiate the game as it comes to you.  Make things easier for yourself, if the offense tells you they are taking a knee, ignore them, and just keep officiating.  If the QB takes a knee, hit the whistle.  If the defense does something stupid, flag them, or even eject, because at that point, it's probably flagrant.

I agree completely. 

I will go one step farther - I will kill the play if, after telling me he is taking a knee, the quarterback so much as dips.  That's it - he's down, and the play is over.


Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2014, 01:03:22 PM »
Quote
I will go one step farther - I will kill the play if, after telling me he is taking a knee, the quarterback so much as dips.  That's it - he's down, and the play is over.

Oh no, mods can we just kill this one now????????

ECILLJ

  • Guest
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2014, 10:00:47 AM »
Oh no, mods can we just kill this one now????????

Agreed, this poor horse already died a brutal death.  LOL

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2014, 10:16:06 AM »
Quote
Agreed, this poor horse already died a brutal death.

And dug up and re-buried.  Looks like the possum carcass my dog once presented to me as a gift.

 deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: QB Kneel Down At Game End
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2014, 11:42:49 AM »
Happy to oblige.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi