Author Topic: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown  (Read 57619 times)

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2014, 09:10:22 AM »
http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001

Clearly, he was initially upset that the call was made at all, but then had his anger justified due to the incorrect enforcement.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?  Where does one find the official EXCUSES that allow "Justifying your anger" that permits an adult, responsible for teaching a group of teenagers about poise and control and responding appropriately to dissappointment, to behave like an emotional teenager.

Grow up coach, your day in the spotlight ended the day you graduated.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2014, 10:45:10 AM »
Disappointed at.......
       
   (1) The officials...of the 5 vets, at least one should have realized the foul had no barring on the play and would be enforced from succeeding spot.
   (2) The coach....who didn't know the rule (or he would have asked for an O/C conference) and became unglued setting a very poor image for his players and fans.
   (3) the Fans...who followed their coach's lead and lost control.

Happy that......

   (1) I live in Maine...worst case in my memory was a couple of years ago when a coach gave the officials the "middle finger salute" as they were leaving the field on Friday night. He quit on Sunday afternoon before he would have been fired on Monday morning.

   (2) We don't have the potential for protested games. We have two safety nets to protect against a misapplied rule....Crew conference : If any crew member thinks we're screwing up a rule, get the crew together and talk thru it- 4/5/6/7 heads are always better than one.....Coach/referee conference : Another reason for the coach to know the rules. IMHO, to allow protests would become a quagmire if the game needed to be replayed from the point of the misapplied rule. I receive several dozen calls from coaches every season regarding "official mistakes", 90+% are regarding judgement calls, but some are misapplication of the rules. If we had "do over" provisions, I'd shudder to predict the end results ---

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2014, 11:40:46 AM »
If you're at a supermarket checkout, and the clerk rings up the wrong price, a rational person might suggest, "excuse me, your flyer suggests the item is on sale", which the clerk may respond either, "you're right, excuse me, I'll correct it" or, "You're looking at last week's flyer".  For either response a simple, "Thank you" should suffice without any need for shouting, gestures or complaining.

NFHS 3-5-2-c provides a straightforward process for "reviewing a game official's application of a rule that may have been misapplied or misinterpreted" allowing for review and possible correction to take place immediately.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2014, 12:09:19 PM »

   I have seen the tape and have no problm withe the flag. There was 1 coach on the field 5 yards and another he has to run around to avoid collision in the restricted area


The video posted below above doesn't support your observations, IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:55:03 PM by TxSkyBolt »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 03:02:16 PM »
The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference.  OK, so I'm the coach in this case.

"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"

"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue.  It's the previous spot."

Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake.  Little League has a better system than this!  In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office.  An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.

Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office?  Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.

In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year.  There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway.  So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?

Offline Wingmanbp

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2014, 03:29:42 PM »
The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference.  OK, so I'm the coach in this case.

"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"

"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue.  It's the previous spot."

Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake.  Little League has a better system than this!  In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office.  An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.

Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office?  Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.

In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year.  There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway.  So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?
You would need 100 officials to answer that many calls because every game you would have a coach wanting to question an enforcement ;D

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2014, 04:39:19 PM »

In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year.  There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway.  So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?

Their punishment is the knowledge that their mistake cost a group of kids a shot at a state championship. That is something that they'll never forget, and it will probably bother them for years.

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2014, 08:59:23 PM »
The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference.  OK, so I'm the coach in this case.

"Excuse me, Mr. Referee, but I believe a sideline infraction would be marked from the succeeding spot, not from the previous spot?"

"Sorry coach, we've already ruled on that issue.  It's the previous spot."

Now I lose a time out in addition to not being able to correct his mistake.  Little League has a better system than this!  In that case, if I ask for the conference and still think the crew is wrong (as they were here), an immediate phone call is made to the regional office.  An experienced administrator with a rule book in hand makes the call.

Why not, if not for all season, at least for playoff games, allow a call to the state office?  Most games are played simultaneously on Friday evening, it means the head of officials needs to be on call for a few hours.

In a case like this, the crew was "punished" by not getting any more games this year.  There is a good chance this was their last game of the year anyway.  So what did they lose other than a lot of respect?

That is one reason Ohio requires the rule book, case book and part of the Gold Book at the field. We kept them in a zip lock bag under the 20 yard marker.
Note: I have NEVER seen them pulled out ever.
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Offline GeorgiaBlue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2014, 10:01:00 AM »
The problem with a coach/referee conference is that the person that made the initial mistake is the one that still gets to rule after the conference. 

AB - I'm curious.  You've been on the sidelines for a while, how many times in the hundreds of games have you had a coach/referee conference?

In my 15 years, I've been in part of one, and we didn't change anything (and wouldn't have with your 'instant replay' system.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 10:15:00 AM »
That is one reason Ohio requires the rule book, case book and part of the Gold Book at the field. We kept them in a zip lock bag under the 20 yard marker.
Note: I have NEVER seen them pulled out ever.
Tom, does the zip lock bag have room for a cache of  sNiCkErS???  :)

Offline walkintall

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2014, 10:47:08 AM »
http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/3914921097001

I too had issues reading that first link that was posted, but with enough other clicks, I got around it -- but I also found a link to a video of the play at the same newspaper site. It looks like one of the Douglass coaches (complete speculation on who it is) let the media video tape his computer while he shows video of the play. The guy makes a comment during the video -- "Nobody touched him. Did you see that?"

Clearly, he was initially upset that the call was made at all, but then had his anger justified due to the incorrect enforcement.

However, the guy running down the field well behind the play, 5 yards on the field, who then goes off and stands behind the LJ at the 10 -- I don't think that was a coach, but I don't know who it was. A penalty charter or something? Coaches seem to be wearing orange and at least cognizant of the team box.
Seeing the video makes me wonder if the coach is a "victim" of improper rule enforcement during his season. To me, it looks like business as usual is taking place. Now that he is in the playoffs, he gets officials from other regions, and they watch the sidelines a little closer.

Still no excuse for improper enforcement.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2014, 01:50:52 PM »
AB - I'm curious.  You've been on the sidelines for a while, how many times in the hundreds of games have you had a coach/referee conference?

In my 15 years, I've been in part of one, and we didn't change anything (and wouldn't have with your 'instant replay' system.
Assuming you mean for a misinterpretation of the rules.  Formally?  Maybe 3, one of which caused a change in the ruling on the field, yet we were right on all of them, which is the problem.  Even if the coach is right, unless the R is willing to admit his mistake, it's all for naught, AND you lose a time out.

Informally?  Dozens and dozens.  About every other game, I point out/ask about an enforcement that is incorrect, and in 95% of them, we are right.  It's sad how often it happens.  One of them almost got me a flag this year.  Hold by the offense about 5 yards down field on an incomplete pass.  U marked the penalty from the flag.  I said, "But that's a loose ball play, it should be from the previous spot."  L tells me, "Holding is ALWAYS from the spot of the foul."  Now I know I'm dealing with, well, let's just say someone less grounded in the rules than they should be.  When I say something again, I'm told, "Shut up, I don't deal with assistants."  I told our head coach to call time out and question the enforcement and his answer was, "I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure they will listen, and we can't waste the time out."  And therein lies the problem.  The R is judge, jury and executioner, and unfortunately, for many reasons, they make far too many mistakes with no recourse.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2014, 03:32:48 PM »
Even if the coach is right, unless the R is willing to admit his mistake, it's all for naught, AND you lose a time out.

  I told our head coach to call time out and question the enforcement and his answer was, "I'm sure you're right, but I'm not sure they will listen, and we can't waste the time out."  And therein lies the problem.  The R is judge, jury and executioner, and unfortunately, for many reasons, they make far too many mistakes with no recourse.

Are you suggesting the reason for the existing protocol failing is somehow the referee's fault?  It seems the problem exists in one of two other areas.  Either YOU were unable to persuade YOUR HC that YOUR assessment of the situation was correct, or YOUR HC was too lazy, or too timid to trust that your conclusion was correct and that HE would be unable to successfully explain your challenge correctly.

In either matter, it seems the solution was on YOUR side of the Sideline, but nobody there had the will to see it considered. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2014, 06:41:58 PM »
Are you suggesting the reason for the existing protocol failing is somehow the referee's fault?

In some cases, absolutely, 100% yes.

Quote
It seems the problem exists in one of two other areas.  Either YOU were unable to persuade YOUR HC that YOUR assessment of the situation was correct,

Not at all, he was certain I was correct.

Quote
or YOUR HC was too lazy, or too timid to trust that your conclusion was correct and that HE would be unable to successfully explain your challenge correctly.

What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake.  We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference.  We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference.  They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out.  Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time.  You can't explain anything to him.  He knows it all."

So where is the fault in that one?  In many ways, the fault lies with the state to still allow someone that deficient in rules knowledge to even be on the field.

Quote
In either matter, it seems the solution was on YOUR side of the Sideline, but nobody there had the will to see it considered.

Again, wrong, as wrong as the L that told me ALL holding fouls are marked from the spot of the foul, "everyone knows that."

I know many officials that simply made a mistake, and when it's calmly brought to their attention, are willing to admit they were wrong.  And there are certainly many coaches that are deficient in their rules knowledge when challenging enforcements or interpretations.  But there are some real rules idiots that are allowed to call HS games as well, and unfortunately, we don't get a choice as to which work our games.

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2014, 08:43:34 PM »
Tom, does the zip lock bag have room for a cache of  sNiCkErS???  :)

No, the U has his own duffel bag for them.
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Offline Bwest

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2014, 09:15:51 PM »
"Shut up, I don't deal with assistants." 

This line would get us in trouble. There are a few assistant coaches in these parts who have clandestinely taped conversations with officials on the sideline and later sent them in to the state.

I've never heard it ending well for those officials when lines like these show up.

Offline SD_Casey

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2014, 09:18:33 PM »
I had a coach request a conference this year. His team was losing and wanted to argue a progress spot.  I let him vent for a few moments then told him he was arguing balls and strikes and sent him on his way.  I suspect that's all he really wanted anyway.

I can definitely see where AB is coming from though.

If I were a coach, I wouldn't risk losing the time out either unless it is truly game-changing.  Or if you know the R's personality and know that he a strong enough "rules guy" that he will recognize the correct ruling when he hears it.  To many "if's" there for me.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 09:21:22 PM by SD_Casey »

Offline TXMike

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Oklahoma Mess
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2014, 04:26:57 AM »
EDITED-------OOOPSS, JUST REALIZED YOU ALREADY HAVE THIS GOING ON THE NFHS THREAD-----

Last week they had a playoff game where a late TD that would have won the game was erased after officials incorrectly enforced a sideline foul.  Now the school has asked for the last minute of the game to be replayed.  The state's governing body is set to vote on that request today.    http://footballscoop.com/news/hs-playoff-games-ends-controversially-one-school-suggests-replaying-final-minute/

This link has some video from the game and a claim that one official was assaulted in the aftermath: 
http://www.newson6.com/story/27530314/ref-punched-in-face-after-controversial-call-at-high-school-quarterfinal-football-game

Can't believe they would approve a replay of the last minute but stranger things have happened.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:30:35 AM by TXMike »

Offline blindref757

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2014, 06:23:15 AM »
I get it that they kicked the call and that is bad.  But if we are all honest, that could be any one of us.  I had my JUCO crew talk me off of an enforcement spot this year where I stopped the clock...called a crew conference...we had a discussion...we disagreed...but I ultimately deferred to the two guys that have about 10 years more experience than me.  In the locker room, I was right.  We all kick calls from time to time.  If you haven't, you are either intellectually dishonest or you haven't been on the field.

Now...what I think we should be discussing is the real root of the problem.  This issue is a TEAM issue.  These coaches are a part of the team and they clearly violated the coaching box rule.  If they would have kept their butts off the field, the refs wouldn't have had a call to blow.  They should not get a do-over...and they should be responsible for their actions and be forced to go own up to those boys and say...there are TWO wrongs here and OUR wrong started the ball rolling.  This loss is OUR fault...not the officials.  If we had followed the rules, they wouldn't have screwed up the enforcement!

Somehow, in the days we live in....where referee scapegoating is en vogue...I seriously doubt that this conversation will never happen.  And sadly, another generation will walk away from the game thinking that someone else is the root of their problems...victim mentality.   ^no

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2014, 06:48:28 AM »
Now...what I think we should be discussing is the real root of the problem.  This issue is a TEAM issue.  These coaches are a part of the team and they clearly violated the coaching box rule.  If they would have kept their butts off the field, the refs wouldn't have had a call to blow.  They should not get a do-over...and they should be responsible for their actions and be forced to go own up to those boys and say...there are TWO wrongs here and OUR wrong started the ball rolling.  This loss is OUR fault...not the officials.  If we had followed the rules, they wouldn't have screwed up the enforcement!
Here's the opposite side of that argument:

"Boys, the coaches made a mistake, and we should be fairly punished for it.  But due to the bigger mistake of officials who should have known better, YOU are being unfairly punished, and denied the opportunity we all earned as a TEAM."

To say that the coaches error was the bigger of the two is ludicrous.  Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use this second argument either, it's a dumb as the first one that says the bigger mistake was on the part of the coaches.  The coach's mistake was one of reaction, made in the heat of the moment.  The officials' mistake was calculated, they had relaxed time to consider their decision.

Using your logic, the officials mistake "justified" the post game behavior as well, because if the officials had gotten the call right, the coaches and fans never would have had anything to be angry about.  That argument is just as ludicrous, as nothing justifies what happened after the game.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:37:52 AM by Atlanta Blue »

Offline VALJ

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2014, 07:24:49 AM »
And, the other side of the story...

http://newsok.com/high-school-football-football-official-chris-cervantes-upset-about-bad-call-in-douglass-locust-grove-game/article/5371936

Quote
Willis Alexander then said he argued the enforcement, though Cervantes and his crewmate Chad Moyer both said that argument was never made.

“Not one of the Douglass coaches or the Douglass head coach argued or complained about the enforcement of the penalty,” Cervantes said. “They didn’t know how the penalty should have been enforced; they were all arguing the penalty itself. If they would have argued the enforcement, we as officials would have got back together to discuss it and probably came out with the right penalty assessment.”

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2014, 09:27:56 AM »
To try to somehow justify the officials' mistake is laughable, and is part of what makes the public and press not trust us.  The only answer here is "we were wrong, we accept responsibility, and we will now move on."

We do all make mistakes.  We are making the mistake worse by trying to blame others.  WE are paid (maybe not enough) to be the rules experts, and the people who are accountable for mistakes regarding enforcement.  it is not the coach's responsibility or anyone else's to enforce the rules properly.  THAT IS OUR JOB.  We often quote the adage, Players Play, Coaches Coach, and Officials Officiate.  In this case the officials did not officiate properly (PERIOD END OF STORY).  To try to blame someone else is the problem.  This mistake is ours (as officials) to own.

It is unfortunate that the error cannot be corrected, but put simply that is the way High School football is played.  The key is that all involved must move on and learn from this mistake.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 09:43:08 AM by Johnponz »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2014, 09:37:37 AM »
And this just shows that the crew should just not talk with the media.  They aren't going to win the public debate.  Whether or not the coach proffered the correct argument, it is the crew's responsibility to enforce the foul correctly.  This isn't court where not following certain certain procedures results in a technical dismissal of a motion.

The coach screwed up by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The officials screwed up by misapplying enforcement of a properly called foul.  The coach(es) then compounded their error by letting their emotions go unchecked.  Make excuses for their behavior all you want but at some point they have to be professional enough to know when to not cross the line, that is a part of being a coach too.  The situation then apparently got away from the officials, which is their professional responsibility to try really hard to avoid.

Like the mess in Louisiana last year, a situation that could have been handled better got out of hand quickly and there wasn't any way to put the cow back in the barn once she got loose.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 10:11:51 AM by HLinNC »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2014, 09:54:25 AM »
In some cases, absolutely, 100% yes.

Not at all, he was certain I was correct.

What he has come to know is that too many referees, from one local association in particular, won't listen, or ever admit they have made a mistake.  We had an R and a U in one game enforce a loss of down on DEFENSIVE pass interference.  We called time out, and explained that would only be true (at that time) for OFFENSIVE pass interference.  They said, nope, we were wrong, and they were charging us a time out.  Even the H, working our sideline, agreed with us, but said, "Coach, you're wasting your time.  You can't explain anything to him.  He knows it all."

So where is the fault in that one?  In many ways, the fault lies with the state to still allow someone that deficient in rules knowledge to even be on the field.

Again, wrong, as wrong as the L that told me ALL holding fouls are marked from the spot of the foul, "everyone knows that."

I know many officials that simply made a mistake, and when it's calmly brought to their attention, are willing to admit they were wrong.  And there are certainly many coaches that are deficient in their rules knowledge when challenging enforcements or interpretations.  But there are some real rules idiots that are allowed to call HS games as well, and unfortunately, we don't get a choice as to which work our games.

Pursuing perfection is a laudable goal, thinking you are somehow entitled to it, is a fool's dream.  As it applies to BOTH Coaches and Officials, some are really good and better than others, while the rest of us are trying our best to keep getting better.  Since I'm really not qualified to differentiate between those who have reached their potential and those still working at it, I tend to start, by giving all the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps if YOU, and your school, keep experiencing extradinary difficulty in questioning or challenging official's rulings during your games, you might consider HOW YOU ARE CONDUCTING YOURSELVES WHEN QUESTIONING OR CHALLENGING THOSE RULINGS. 

Just like coaches, officials often learn much more dramatically from mistakes, which have always been and will assuredly continue to be, a valuable part of the overall learning process.  Also like coaches, officials will have yet ANOTHER opportunity to work their FIRST perfect game, the NEXT time they step on a field, no matter how many fields they've already stepped on.

As an analogy, for those of us married, you might ponder how successful you've been in persuading your significant other, to assess your perspective by screaming, jesturing and demeaning them. Conversely, you might also consider, how receptive you may be to contemplating a different perspective when it's preceeded by constant nagging and nitpicking about all sorts of innocuous matters.

The vast majority of officials dwell on, rehash, contemplate and LEARN from each of their mistakes far more and far longer than those who seem to relish, harp on and excessively and repeatedly remind us of them. Every so often, game officials encounter sideline personnel, who have yet to learn how to respectfully interact with other adults.  It's an unfortunate challenge of our profession to learn to endure such behavior and deal with it in such a way so as not to detract from our primary responsibilities.  How well we actually deal with such individuals is a life long learning exercise, most struggle with, but accept as part of our challenge.

Hopefully your next game will finally be your FIRST perfect one, and with God's help maybe my next game will even be mine.  If not, I'll continue aiming at the one after.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Officials' error calls back go-ahead touchdown
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2014, 10:20:06 AM »
We are all responsible, as a crew, for correct penalty enforcement, down number, time, etc.

Part of my pregame each week is to encourage my crew to be a "crew-saver", and not defer to me just because I happen to wear the white hat.  They all feel comfortable doing so.