IR and Forward Progress ?

[TXMike]

Reportedly the Team B coach asked flank about stopping so IR could review and was told it was non-reviewable.  Not working with IR I have no clue about how accurate that claim or response are.   What I read says forward progress is reviewable when a LTG or GL is involved. It was 4th and a bit and the LTG did seem to be involved but I may be misunderstanding the intent of the rule.   (and when it is all said and done, the videos shown appear to lose sight of the ball at a point and when it is seen again it is in Team B possession.  Perhaps the covering official had the same)   

https://youtu.be/XgElnPnSo1M

[centexsports]

I think everyone is missing the true problem with this play.   I know it is not called very often, but by RULE the call should have been Aiding the Runner.    Number 77 grabs the ball carrier and pulls him forward.   My understanding is you can push, drive, pound but you cannot PULL.   Penalize for the actual foul and there is no issue.

[Magician]

If I'm understanding the situation, replay can review if the spot is correct in relation to LTG or GL. What they can't do is review a potential fumble when forward progress was ruled on the field. It sounds like that's what the R announced here so replay couldn't get involved with the potential turnover. They could get involved if the spot should have been short of the LTG but he clearly is beyond the LTG so there is nothing for IR to do here other than confirm the call on the field.

[TXMike]

I hope he was working hard to find the ball because it seems would have been impossible to see the ball when forward progress was judged to have been stopped.   I know how hard it is when they are in big piles but if don’t see leather or who has it can we say ball is dead ?

[bossman72]

Reportedly the Team B coach asked flank about stopping so IR could review and was told it was non-reviewable.  Not working with IR I have no clue about how accurate that claim or response are.   What I read says forward progress is reviewable when a LTG or GL is involved. It was 4th and a bit and the LTG did seem to be involved but I may be misunderstanding the intent of the rule.   (and when it is all said and done, the videos shown appear to lose sight of the ball at a point and when it is seen again it is in Team B possession.  Perhaps the covering official had the same)   

https://youtu.be/XgElnPnSo1M

I believe the announcement was that forward progress was stopped prior to the ball coming loose.  If that was indeed the announcement, then replay is then officially out of it.

[bossman72]

I hope he was working hard to find the ball because it seems would have been impossible to see the ball when forward progress was judged to have been stopped.   I know how hard it is when they are in big piles but if don’t see leather or who has it can we say ball is dead ?

I also am very diligent about finding the ball as a wing, however it bit me in the BUTT this year.  There was a play where the runner went into a pile of players and was getting held up and driven backward a little.  He then gets stripped and the defense recovers.  When you watch it on film, it's definitely FWP.  However, on the field from the LOS view, you can't see the ball.

Moral of the story is, sometimes you just have to "feel" it and go with your gut when it comes to ruling FWP or fumble (different than down vs fumble).  In my play, you can see the reaction of the defensive players going for the ball and pointing the other way after the point in time where I felt in my gut FWP has been stopped.  So you can reasonably assume FWP was stopped prior to the ball coming loose without actually seeing the ball.  In this play it's incredibly tough due to the way the ball was stripped.  Almost the opposite wing has the best look to get it right.

Overall, very tough play!

[ElvisLives]

I also am very diligent about finding the ball as a wing, however it bit me in the BUTT this year.  There was a play where the runner went into a pile of players and was getting held up and driven backward a little.  He then gets stripped and the defense recovers.  When you watch it on film, it's definitely FWP.  However, on the field from the LOS view, you can't see the ball.

Moral of the story is, sometimes you just have to "feel" it and go with your gut when it comes to ruling FWP or fumble (different than down vs fumble).  In my play, you can see the reaction of the defensive players going for the ball and pointing the other way after the point in time where I felt in my gut FWP has been stopped.  So you can reasonably assume FWP was stopped prior to the ball coming loose without actually seeing the ball.  In this play it's incredibly tough due to the way the ball was stripped.  Almost the opposite wing has the best look to get it right.

Overall, very tough play!

The LTG / GL charge is the single most difficult play in all of American football, if not in all of sports.
Robert

[NVFOA_Ump]

I'm OK with the call here.  By the time the WV player took the ball away, the K player was in fact no longer moving forward.  Very close call but where the ball was spotted was IMHO slightly behind the point where the WV player took the ball away.  Also, I don't believe that any actions by the K players could be correctly called illegally pulling the ball carrier.  He was originally pushing him forward (1 of 3 or 4) and get turned to the side at the end of the play.  He was never in front of the ball carrier and pulling him forward.

Even if replay could or did look at this play there IMHO is nothing there clear enough to overturn the original call.

[Magician]

I also am very diligent about finding the ball as a wing, however it bit me in the BUTT this year.  There was a play where the runner went into a pile of players and was getting held up and driven backward a little.  He then gets stripped and the defense recovers.  When you watch it on film, it's definitely FWP.  However, on the field from the LOS view, you can't see the ball.

Moral of the story is, sometimes you just have to "feel" it and go with your gut when it comes to ruling FWP or fumble (different than down vs fumble).  In my play, you can see the reaction of the defensive players going for the ball and pointing the other way after the point in time where I felt in my gut FWP has been stopped.  So you can reasonably assume FWP was stopped prior to the ball coming loose without actually seeing the ball.  In this play it's incredibly tough due to the way the ball was stripped.  Almost the opposite wing has the best look to get it right.

Overall, very tough play!

The umpire can possibly help as well. At this point he's not worried about anything but the pile. If he sees the runner has been lifted off the ground or is definitely being pushed back he can either give the dead ball signal or blow it dead. He may also have a better view of the ball and can help on timing of the ball coming out. Give it a second to make sure he doesn't drop a bean bag. I agree sometimes gut does get involved on progress situations. It's different than down/fumble.

[Sonofanump]

First of all, kudos to the video editing, every time I thought, "I want to see that again", it was slowed down and saw what I was looking for.

Does the action of B41 cause the progress to be thwarted and if so, the ball does not appear in B23's possession prior to that point.
A77 does turn the push into a pull after the LTG was acheived, and after driven back by B41.
 
If this was able to go to replay (for loose ball prior to progress ruling), I think stands would be the call.

[mccormicw]

Way late to the party on this one...but....It seemed to me that forward progress was a pretty good ruling if it happened when the runner was "stopped" about a half yard past the LTG.  The L stayed there until the runner hit the ground.  At some point after (I sorta have to assume since I dont really see the ball) the runner "stopped", the defense takes the ball away and the runner falls forward another yard or so.  The L marks progress at the spot where the runner hits the ground.  IMO, the L probably didnt know the ball came out until he saw the defense holding it.  Otherwise, I would think he would have stayed at the spot where the runner originally was "stopped".  I have no problem with the L then ruling progress, however, he should have marked the ball down at the spot that he believed the runner reached before the fumble.