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61

NCAA Discussion / Re: 'Trick' plays involving punts

« Last post by bossman72 on April 04, 2024, 09:50:48 PM »

The big problem is that we don’t have a really good idea from the rules, or the Rules Committee, as to what constitutes “…high and deep…” for this rule.

This has been interpreted several different ways by several different supervisors.  We've never gotten clear information about it.

I wish we knew the play that created this rule change.  I think teams used to run a fake punt where the punter would throw the ball "high and deep" straight at the returner so it looks like a kick.  The returner would camp under it and the gunner would cut in front and catch it to the bewilderment of the returner.  That's probably the play they wanted to eliminate, but I'd love to see the year it came into the book and any unusual fake punts from the year or two before.

I'm not totally sure if they wanted to eliminate the deep pass down the sideline to the gunner where the return team person covering him is pressing him the whole way down field while the ball is in the air to draw a cheap DPI.

62

National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics

« Last post by ElvisLives on April 04, 2024, 05:23:32 PM »

if the coaches don't know what their options are, i don't feel it is our place to tell them....UNLESS ASKED....thier lack of knowledge of the rules is not our problem....they have rules books

  👏👏👏👏👏

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National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics

« Last post by fudilligas on April 04, 2024, 02:44:11 PM »

if the coaches don't know what their options are, i don't feel it is our place to tell them....UNLESS ASKED....thier lack of knowledge of the rules is not our problem....they have rules books

64

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by AlUpstateNY on April 04, 2024, 12:52:36 PM »

This is moreso what I was driving at - i know the rule (NCAA is similar) but I don't understand the logic behind it for this very specific case. The rules also appear to be in conflict - FC rules say R can't advance, but scrimmage kick rules say if they catch/recover behind the NZ, both teams can advance. Usually in situations like these, we see a 'if not in conflict with other rules' statement. I don't see anything that says FC rules trump scrimmage kick rule in this situation.

NFHS 6.5.2 situation B: Since "K" may catch or recover a scrimmage kick, in or behind  the NZ & advance, the action  (in "a" or "b") is legal.

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NCAA Discussion / Re: 'Trick' plays involving punts

« Last post by dammitbobby on April 04, 2024, 09:27:39 AM »

I definitely would support a BIB call by B13 on A51, he clearly got him from the back and knocked him right out of the play.

I don't love a foul on B2 on A25 for BSB. I understand it's a safety rule (and I also recognize that I'm probably wrong in the strictest interpretation of the rule) but B has the right to the same space as A, and shouldn't be solely responsible for any contact between the two... and if A is running downfield, IMO he has some responsibility to be aware of his surroundings, and we shouldn't bail him out for not seeing what is almost directly in front of him, and almost stationary. A similar play was shared on a FB group a while back, and I was also in the minority there, but I think the spirit of the rule isn't to give A a free pass from contact just because they elect to turn their head.

66

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by dammitbobby on April 04, 2024, 09:23:45 AM »

Let's revisit the case when the ball does not cross the NZ or is blown back behind it. It is my understanding that no matter where the signal is given (either beyond or behind the NZ) if the ball is behind the NZ, K is not restricted from contacting R in an effort to gain possession. If this is true why does R have to forfeit his right to advance while receiving zero protection from being contacted. I would say any ball caught or recovered behind the NZ can be advanced by either team.

This is moreso what I was driving at - i know the rule (NCAA is similar) but I don't understand the logic behind it for this very specific case. The rules also appear to be in conflict - FC rules say R can't advance, but scrimmage kick rules say if they catch/recover behind the NZ, both teams can advance. Usually in situations like these, we see a 'if not in conflict with other rules' statement. I don't see anything that says FC rules trump scrimmage kick rule in this situation.

67

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by sczeebra on April 04, 2024, 07:38:37 AM »

We all love ya butts! The conditions are not met as per the definition in 2-9-1. IMHO since 6-5-5 covers section 5 "Fair Catch" the definition of said section needs to be met. In the spirit of the game I could not see a situation where R gets clocked and somehow catches the ball and we tell him now he can't run with it.

68

National Federation Discussion / Re: Clinc Conversation Topics

« Last post by Ralph Damren on April 04, 2024, 07:19:23 AM »

And we shouldn't forget the silent accept/decline of penalties. In pre-game, we ask the coach: " Are the penaly choice person ?"
  One grunt means "AYUH"
  "We won't waste your time on obvious choices, if you wish/"
  One grunt means "AYUH"
  Two grunts means "AYUH"

69

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by Ralph Damren on April 04, 2024, 06:57:10 AM »

Let's revisit the case when the ball does not cross the NZ or is blown back behind it. It is my understanding that no matter where the signal is given (either beyond or behind the NZ) if the ball is behind the NZ, K is not restricted from contacting R in an effort to gain possession. If this is true why does R have to forfeit his right to advance while receiving zero protection from being contacted. I would say any ball caught or recovered behind the NZ can be advanced by either team.

6-5-5 states :"No reciever may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal hs been given by any R player." The only situation I could dream of, where R could advance is if:
(1)  fair catch signal given;
(2)  ball goes thru R1's hands and bounces behind LOS;
(3)  ball fielded behind LOS by K and advanced, only to fumble;
(4)  if R then recovered fumble, they could advance as COP rules would apply.

This coming Monday we Mainers will see a full eclipse of the sun. Last one in Maine was 1963. I will have seen two. That's two more than the above mentioned play that I've never seen. 

70

National Federation Discussion / Re: Fair Catch

« Last post by sczeebra on April 04, 2024, 06:20:17 AM »

Let's revisit the case when the ball does not cross the NZ or is blown back behind it. It is my understanding that no matter where the signal is given (either beyond or behind the NZ) if the ball is behind the NZ, K is not restricted from contacting R in an effort to gain possession. If this is true why does R have to forfeit his right to advance while receiving zero protection from being contacted. I would say any ball caught or recovered behind the NZ can be advanced by either team.