Interesting Punt Play

[bossman72]

Things to note in this play:

--U has a foul
--Check your definitions.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzA-T4I9Rwu4eV8wYmR1U19xUXc/view?usp=sharing

[Stinterp]

The touching by K3 is ignored,  K possesses the kick beyond the NZ (K-49) so play is dead at that point.  Loose ball play so previous spot is the basic spot,  personal foul by B enforced from the previous spot.  1st and 10 for Team K if it was less than 15 yards to go, hard to tell, might require a measurement.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Assuming this is the 2017 Illegal Blindside Block rule.  Looks like it meets the requirements to get a flag  (outside the free blocking zone, not with extended open hands, and forcible contact).  Not sure what the A player is doing (waiting for a cab?) but the B player chooses to hit him instead of going to the loose ball.  Looks like 15 yards and a 1st down.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, some "ifs"...

(1) the HL should have bean bagged the spot that K scooped up the ball IF he felt the kick had traveled beyond the neutral zone (6-2-3) as it can't be advanced;

(2) IF the kick had traveled BEYOND the EXPANDED neutral zone (6-2-5) before K got to it, you would have first touching;

(3) IF #2 was the call, then R's foul would fall under PSK, IF the foul had also occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone (2-16-2h-3);

(4) BUT the HL, who rules IF the kick was beyond either, appeared to allow the play to continue which would indicate that he didn't.

Interesting post, Bossman, time for some lobster chowdeah  ....

[NVFOA_Ump]

Ralph has some good "ifs" here but based on the officials actions on the field they appear to have a valid recovery of the loose kick behind the NZ (I see no bags down when A picks up the ball - right in front of the wing official who's got the line) and he then trails the play, killing the clock after A is down.  I'm thinking legal recovery and advance by A with the penalty to be enforced.

Probably would have been a good mechanic to have a bag down at the recovery spot (end of the kick) since the box is behind the official and would have been an excellent aid in selling or correcting the call.

[PABJNR]

Why would the touching by K3 be ignored? This to me does not fall under PSK as the ball is recovered behind the expanded NZ, looks like it was recovered beyond NZ but its tight, either was it's a loose ball play so basic spot is previous spot.


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[Ralph Damren]

Agreed, HL could have bean-bagged spot of recovery and checked after the play (unless he has eyes in the back of his head -like the lady in the auto ad ) as he is back to the downs marker. I'm proposing to the Manual Committee to hold the LJ until the scrimmage kick has passed the LOS and send HL downfield on snap as LJ has clear view of LOS. Opinions on that, anyone?

Here's some more "IFs" on that play....

IF the  occurred AFTER K gained possession the basic spot would be the end of K's run assuming the kick was ruled behind LOS when recovered - easy, new series K.

IF the  occurred BEFORE K gained possession, you have a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement. I would suggest measure before you mark-off :
(1) Convince the  chain crew you know what you're doing ;
(2) secure back stake;
(3) reverse & tighten chains with former lead stake towards K's goal line;
(4) check tape marking 5 yd. increment on chain - IF it doesn't reach the down marker ,you'll have 4th down, determine distance with fist, reset chains and mark off shortage on down marker. IF it does reach the down marker,  easy, 1st down.

IF the kick was ruled beyond the LOS when possessed by K and IF the foul occurred beyond the expanded NZ and IF it occurred before K's possession = PSK,ABO and R's ball with new series.

IF it occurred after K's possession beyond the NZ, you would now have a dead ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement.

Enough "IFs" from me....ayuh, the chowdeah  was good

[bossman72]

I find it odd that:

1) This kick is recovered beyond the regular NZ, therefore cannot be advanced.
2) The requirements for PSK is that the kick travels beyond the EXPANDED NZ, which it did not.

You'd think those rules would match up.  I think the rules makers put "expanded" in there so we don't make FG's blocked 2 yards beyond the NZ PSK eligible.  But, then we have this unintended play consequence.

[ncwingman]

IF the  occurred BEFORE K gained possession, you have a loose ball foul with previous spot enforcement. I would suggest measure before you mark-off :
(1) Convince the  chain crew you know what you're doing ;
(2) secure back stake;
(3) reverse & tighten chains with former lead stake towards K's goal line;
(4) check tape marking 5 yd. increment on chain - IF it doesn't reach the down marker ,you'll have 4th down, determine distance with fist, reset chains and mark off shortage on down marker. IF it does reach the down marker,  easy, 1st down.

There's also a simpler way if you have some knowledge of how it became 4th and 15. If it was 3 incomplete passes and a false start... no measurement needed, that would be a first down.

[bossman72]

There's also a simpler way if you have some knowledge of how it became 4th and 15. If it was 3 incomplete passes and a false start... no measurement needed, that would be a first down.

I would not go this far, personally.  I'm assuming we're only doing this on a field without tick marks and just have the 5's or 10's lined.  You can eyeball the distance from the down box to the nearest solid line and do the same for the rear steak.  If it's close, give the offense a first down.  Guarantee you nobody will say a word.  Screw the team that screwed up.

[Ralph Damren]

I would only do the "tape trick" if this was a critical play in a tight game. If it was 40-0, no one would care and I wouldn't either. If it was critical, I would care and using the tape would ensure that we got it right.

[bossman72]

I would only do the "tape trick" if this was a critical play in a tight game. If it was 40-0, no one would care and I wouldn't either. If it was critical, I would care and using the tape would ensure that we got it right.

The thing is with the tape trick is that you're still eyeballing it.  So we're doing this big production just to eyeball it again (because we're not bringing the sticks out to "measure" here).

Also, aren't you losing about an inch of accuracy due to the width of the back steak pole?

[Ralph Damren]

The thing is with the tape trick is that you're still eyeballing it.  So we're doing this big production just to eyeball it again (because we're not bringing the sticks out to "measure" here).

Also, aren't you losing about an inch of accuracy due to the width of the back steak pole?

With previous spot enforcement, the downs marker is marking the previous spot so there is no need to bring the chains out on the field. IMHO, it would give us the appearance of being as accurate is possible as would having had the HL bean-bag the spot of kick recovery. IMHO, supporting tools such as your bean-bag and tape can help defuse any argument.

IMHO, the LJ has a better view of the kick & LOS as he's looking across the field. Any opinions on holding him until the kick crosses and sending HL down on snap ?

[CalhounLJ]

With previous spot enforcement, the downs marker is marking the previous spot so there is no need to bring the chains out on the field. IMHO, it would give us the appearance of being as accurate is possible as would having had the HL bean-bag the spot of kick recovery. IMHO, supporting tools such as your bean-bag and tape can help defuse any argument.

IMHO, the LJ has a better view of the kick & LOS as he's looking across the field. Any opinions on holding him until the kick crosses and sending HL down on snap ?

I love the idea. I routinely look to my LJ when the down ends close to the stick because he has the best seat in the house at that point. 


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[ncwingman]

The thing is with the tape trick is that you're still eyeballing it.  So we're doing this big production just to eyeball it again (because we're not bringing the sticks out to "measure" here).

Also, aren't you losing about an inch of accuracy due to the width of the back steak pole?

We're eyeballing everything here. The fact that we put on our little theater show with measuring is fundamentally laughable.

We rely on the HL to "give a foot" for the back stake guy to put the stake on, so the clip man can put the clip on a yard line, assuming the front stake pulled the chain taut first. Everything in that process has a error of a couple inches just in setting up the chains -- oh, and this all happened in 5 seconds because A is in a hurry-up offense after a long pass play. When we then eyeball the forward progress and measure -- a measurement is like playing the lottery. Which team wins the six inch error game this time?

[AlUpstateNY]

"Never let the pursuit of perfection, negate the effort for excellence" Although "First Down Measurements" have yet to achieve consistently exact perfection, the process currently used has worked remarkably well for OVER 100 YEARS.

[ncwingman]

I'm not saying the chains don't work, but I am saying that arguing that worrying over the possible inch discrepancy at one point in the process is meaningless since there's about 8 things that all can give or take an inch.

Just assume they all cancel out and move on to the next play.

[CalhounLJ]

Ya'll give Ralphy a break. I saw this implemented in a game once and thought it was pretty cool. Had no idea what they were doing, but it looked cool