Illegal Formation

[Badger1]

I am hoping the attachment appears with this as me and the computer don't always work well together.  We have a playoff game this week in which one team has used a formation with one of it's backfield players positioning himself immediately behind one of his lineman.  The back has his feet behind the lineman and the back is in a 2 point stance but when he takes his stance leaning forward over the lineman his shoulders and helmet appear to intersect the waistline of the lineman in front of him and I believe this violates Rule 2 Section 32 Article 3 and Rule 7 Section 2 Article 3.  However when watching streaming videos of the team's games this season, I have not found one crew who threw a flag for illegal formation at the snap.  I also am having problems convincing my wings that this is illegal.  The team appears to use the player in this matter to assist in line blocking but he does go out on pass routes at times.  I know if he does that we have multiple fouls.  Am I wrong with thinking this is illegal as the team has played 12 games this season without it being called.  I can only imagine the confrontation I will receive from him at pregame when I try to inform him that the back's final position over the top of his lineman is illegal at the snap when it hasn't been called that way all season long.

[Legacy Zebra]

If your state/assigner wants this to be called, you can call it. But my advice is don’t be “that guy”. Everybody knows he is in the backfield. They are not gaining an advantage and they’re not deceiving the defense. Let it go and call fouls that matter.

[CalhounLJ]

I agree. Put the player somewhere. If he's not on the line, he's in the backfield.

[ncwingman]

By rule, that's an illegal formation. It was even a POE this year to ensure that only one player is breaking the plane of waist of the nearest lineman and everybody else is either on the line or clearly a back.

So, listen to every else, ignore the POE and say it doesn't matter and make him a back because it's not worth emphasizing that point?

[refjeff]

It's a foul. 

Rule 7.2.5a

It's a 2021 Point of Emphasis, p. 96.

Case Book 7.2.3 Situation A.

The coach must think it gives them an advantage or they would not be doing something no one else does.

[HLinNC]

Here's a thought- "Dude, back up just a bit".  Or if you think that is coaching players, "Coach, your A/wingback is getting mighty close to a formation foul, can you talk to him?"

There, problem solved.

Off to help others!

[CalhounLJ]

Serious question- do any of you guys let the slot receiver by with it? The “blade of grass” philosophy? Or do you make sure he’s clearly in the backfield?


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[CalhounLJ]

I guess a better way to ask that is this: have you ever thrown a flag because the slot receiver is not deep enough in the backfield?


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[HLinNC]

I've flagged slots when they line up even with the wideout and go downfield on a pass route but that's because they've failed to check with me. 
I let receivers know up front that I'll communicate with them all night if they'll just give me a look.  If they come up and do nothing but stare in at the ball, they're on their own.

[bossman72]

I would put him where he is supposed to be, but if he's so close to the line that you can't tell, then you need to get to the head coach and tell him that you need a better stagger between the RB and the line, or you will deem him a lineman.  Don't pick the no-man's land ILF booger.  Make him a lineman or back.  It's not a big deal if they run, but if that RB goes out for a pass, then you have an issue.

I deal with this when the H back / TE lines up close to the tackle and the WR on the line is potentially covering him up.  He means to be off, but he only has a slight stagger with the tackle.  After the play, I run in and tell him that I need a better stagger from him or I'm going to rule him covered up.  I then inform the HC at the next break.

[CalhounLJ]

I would put him where he is supposed to be, but if he's so close to the line that you can't tell, then you need to get to the head coach and tell him that you need a better stagger between the RB and the line, or you will deem him a lineman.  Don't pick the no-man's land ILF booger.  Make him a lineman or back.  It's not a big deal if they run, but if that RB goes out for a pass, then you have an issue.

I deal with this when the H back / TE lines up close to the tackle and the WR on the line is potentially covering him up.  He means to be off, but he only has a slight stagger with the tackle.  After the play, I run in and tell him that I need a better stagger from him or I'm going to rule him covered up.  I then inform the HC at the next break.

My point exactly.


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[bama_stripes]

Our state supervisor does NOT want a formation foul, but DOES want him to be an ineligible receiver.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Our state supervisor does NOT want a formation foul, but DOES want him to be an ineligible receiver.

Similar here.  In this position he's not a back and we don't use the "blade of grass" concept for players inside the box.  IMHO he's by definition on the line and ineligible by rule so I would not have an Illegal Formation here.  There's only one player who gets the "back exception" and that's the player under center in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap.

[ncwingman]

I guess a better way to ask that is this: have you ever thrown a flag because the slot receiver is not deep enough in the backfield?


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I've never thrown a flag for an illegal formation foul for a potential receiver in no-mans-land (offensive linemen that are cheating into pass coverage? oh yeah, that's different). I will generally decide if he is "on" or "off" to make the formation legal early in the game and give him a talking to to make it more obvious later.

After a talking to, if the slot receiver would be the fourth back, I'd potentially call an ineligible downfield (or illegal touching, depending) if he wasn't obviously a back. I have seen many teams have 8 linemen and 3 backs and run the ball up the middle. Ain't nothing wrong with that, so it's not a foul until the ineligible man goes down field.

I like to tell receivers (and coaches), "If you make me guess where you are, I'm likely going to guess wrong".

[HLinNC]

(offensive linemen that are cheating into pass coverage? oh yeah, that's different). I will generally decide if he is "on" or "off" to make the formation legal early in the game and give him a talking to to make it more obvious later.

After a talking to, if the slot receiver would be the fourth back, I'd potentially call an ineligible downfield (or illegal touching, depending) if he wasn't obviously a back. I have seen many teams have 8 linemen and 3 backs and run the ball up the middle. Ain't nothing wrong with that, so it's not a foul until the ineligible man goes down field.

I like to tell receivers (and coaches), "If you make me guess where you are, I'm likely going to guess wrong".

  

[fudilligas]

Referee the game......not the book

you only get yourself in trouble when you are looking for things to call.....let them happen

[yarnnelg]

(offensive linemen that are cheating into pass coverage? oh yeah, that's different). I will generally decide if he is "on" or "off" to make the formation legal early in the game and give him a talking to to make it more obvious later.

After a talking to, if the slot receiver would be the fourth back, I'd potentially call an ineligible downfield (or illegal touching, depending) if he wasn't obviously a back. I have seen many teams have 8 linemen and 3 backs and run the ball up the middle. Ain't nothing wrong with that, so it's not a foul until the ineligible man goes down field.

I like to tell receivers (and coaches), "If you make me guess where you are, I'm likely going to guess wrong".

 

I go one step further ...If you come out and ask me "Am I OK?"  I want to respond  "Don't know what does your mother say?"
I actually respond ...."on the line or off, all I need to know."

[Bubba Ump]

One of the biggest problems with HS Football is that the coaches coach all week from the behind the formation.  I have had great luck, while working the flanks, asking for the receiver or Oline coach and asking them who is supposed to be on or off.  Or telling the line coach that the tackle is in the backfield.  They immediately fix the problem and they start watching what they are supposed to be watching instead of watching the ball.  They also appreciate the "Bone" or "Snickers" you're throwing them.  I have never once had this backfire.  And if you do have to fire, they've been warned.  I always get more from position coach communication then I do from the head coach.  Now if you guys could decide whether or not the tackle in the backfield, on the last play of regulation, with the score tied and the kick ruled no good, is a carry over foul to overtime I'd appreciate it.  Cause it's gonna happen to me.  I am jinxed, in a good way, by this forum.

[HLinNC]

Yes, I'll usually ask for the o-line coach or the receivers coach if I've identified a problem that I can't seem to get the kid to fix on his own.  You're right, they tend to be able to fix it faster and easier than the head dude.