Fundamental or foul?

[bbeagle]

4th and 10 at the 50. A1 punts at the A43. Kick is blocked at the line of scrimmage. Ball rolls to the R45. R95 tries to pick up the ball but muffs it back to the A45.

A1 picks up the ball, and punts the ball successfully away at the A45.

R80 is at the R20 waiting for the punted ball. He sees K11 next to him. R80 calls for a fair catch. As the ball comes down to him, K11 jumps up, and catches the ball in the air at the R21, and falls to the ground with the ball knocking over R80 in the process. K11 lands at the R19 with the ball secured.

Do we have a flag for kick-catching interference?

Is Fundamental 1.6 (No foul causes loss of the ball) violated?

[pjsaul]

I'll take a shot.

R95's muff of a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone broke the continuity of downs, but A1's second kick is legal as it occurs behind the neutral zone.

K11 does commit kick catch interference. Even if there were no contact and R80 (seems to be a mix between player R80 and yard line R-20 in the original post) is not blocked going to the ball, K cannot touch a kick in flight if there is an R player in the area (fair catch is irrelevant).

We give an awarded fair catch to R at the R-21, and then add an additional 15 yards for the penalty. R can put the ball in play by a snap or free kick, and can choose which hash mark to put the ball in play on. Clock will start on the snap or first legal touch of the free kick.

Fundamental 1.6 is not violated because K did not legally possess the ball after the KCI penalty. I always ready Fundamental 1.6 to say "no foul IN AND OF ITSELF causes loss of ball". For example - illegal forward pass on 4th down behind the line to gain would mean that the passing team would lose possession of the ball after the foul.

(Edit for completeness: sir55 below is correct that R can also choose to enforce the 15 yard penalty from the previous spot and replay the down - clock starts on the ready. If, for some inexplicable reason, R were to decline the penalty, it would be K's ball, 1st and 10, at the R-19 - clock starts on the snap.).

(Second edit: if R declines the penalty, there is still first touching on the second kick. R's ball, 1st and 10, R-21?) 

[sir55]

Yes, this is fair catch interference. No, the fundamental is not violated. The second scrimmage kick is legal. R can signal for a fair catch of a scrimmage kick any where beyond the neutral zone. When K prevents R from making the fair catch, it is fair catch interference. R can take the ball at the spot of FCI with a 15 yard penalty or enforce a 15 yard penalty from the previous spot and replay the down. See 5-1-3f

[bbeagle]

Fundamental 1.6 is not violated because K did not legally possess the ball after the KCI penalty. I always ready Fundamental 1.6 to say "no foul IN AND OF ITSELF causes loss of ball". For example - illegal forward pass on 4th down behind the line to gain would mean that the passing team would lose possession of the ball after the foul.

Say K caught the ball with his feet down at the R21. After K caught the ball, he hit R80 at the R20. K legally possessed the ball at the R21. But the foul for kick-catching interference negates the catch and legal possession of the ball by K.

Another thought: As soon as K gains possession, K cannot advance. Whistle should sound. So isn't the K hit of R80 a dead-ball foul? Kick-catching interference is a live-ball foul, not a dead-ball foul.

In the original post, K wasn't done with the catch until he landed on the R19. The hit of R80 was before the ball was possessed with a foot down, so that seems to be kick-catching interference. But is it interference if the catch is made before the contact? What if there is no contact and K simply reaches out in front of R and snags the ball? Does 'opportunity to make a catch' make this all moot?

[ada152]

Did the ball make it back to the NZ or behind? I do not think it did if the original LOS was at the K43 and it was recovered after the muff at the K45. I think you have illegal kick which should be treated as a fumble.

[pjsaul]

Say K caught the ball with his feet down at the R21. After K caught the ball, he hit R80 at the R20. K legally possessed the ball at the R21. But the foul for kick-catching interference negates the catch and legal possession of the ball by K.

Another thought: As soon as K gains possession, K cannot advance. Whistle should sound. So isn't the K hit of R80 a dead-ball foul? Kick-catching interference is a live-ball foul, not a dead-ball foul.

In the original post, K wasn't done with the catch until he landed on the R19. The hit of R80 was before the ball was possessed with a foot down, so that seems to be kick-catching interference. But is it interference if the catch is made before the contact? What if there is no contact and K simply reaches out in front of R and snags the ball? Does 'opportunity to make a catch' make this all moot?

Neither contact nor a fair catch is required for KCI (there is no such foul as FCI) - this is confusing because the rule book section (rule 6-5) is called Fair Catch  .

In this case, the member of K touching the kick in flight while a member of R is in the area is a foul. Check 6-5-6.

If there no team R member in the area, there is no foul, but we do have first touching on the second kick (meaning I need to change my first post!). So, actually, R would put the ball in play at the R-21.

[Atlanta Blue]

Say K caught the ball with his feet down at the R21. After K caught the ball, he hit R80 at the R20. K legally possessed the ball at the R21. But the foul for kick-catching interference negates the catch and legal possession of the ball by K.

K did NOT legally possess the ball.  This was a scrimmage kick, a punt.  K can't catch/recover a punt, it's not a free ball.  What you have is first touching, and R will be in team possession.

[bbeagle]

K did NOT legally possess the ball.  This was a scrimmage kick, a punt.  K can't catch/recover a punt, it's not a free ball.  What you have is first touching, and R will be in team possession.

When R95 muffed the first punt, by K1 recovering this behind the line of scrimmage gives K a new series of downs (5-1-3f)

I mixed up 6-2-4 thinking that if the first kick was touched by R, then a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. kick can be recovered by K legally. That's not true. My error.

[Atlanta Blue]

When R95 muffed the first punt, by K1 recovering this behind the line of scrimmage gives K a new series of downs (5-1-3f)

Correct, had they simply fallen on it, run with it or thrown it, K would have received a new series of downs.

I mixed up 6-2-4 thinking that if the first kick was touched by R, then a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. kick can be recovered by K legally. That's not true. My error.

Right.  Once K kicks it again, it becomes a kick with all the rules of the original kick back in place.  I'll freely admit, that's not a simple deduction from the rule book, but it has been sent to the NFHS and has been clarified.   

I would love to see a case play of a second scrimmage kick added to the Case Book.

[Ironhead17]

K did NOT legally possess the ball.  This was a scrimmage kick, a punt.  K can't catch/recover a punt, it's not a free ball.  What you have is first touching, and R will be in team possession.

AB - do we not have kick catch interference? An awarded fair catch w/ 3 options?

[Atlanta Blue]

AB - do we not have kick catch interference? An awarded fair catch w/ 3 options?

If R was in position to make the catch, yes, it would be KCI.  If R was not in position, it's simply first touching.

[SCHSref]

K should have just fallen on the ball if it was muffed back behind the line of scrimmage or try to run it. Even if they didn't make a first down, it would be 1st and 10 for k.

[zoom]

When K catches the ball, the kick is ended and the play is immediately dead, 4-2-2g.  This is what causes the ball to become dead, not the foul.  The main foul is for Kick Catch Interference (which it would be whether or not R80 signaled for a fair catch) if a R player is in position to receive the kick, which is clearly the case here.  The subsequent contact can be judged a second foul, a dead ball personal foul, depending on the contact, since the ball was already dead once the kicking team player catches the scrimmage kick, 9-4-3b.  Once a Receiving team player signals for a fair catch, K MUST avoid contacting him before, or following the kick becoming dead. 

So, if R accepts the fouls, we take it to the R36 after enforcing 15 from the spot where K caught it, and then tack on the DBPF 15 to take it back to the K49.  Clock starts on the snap (assuming R elects to snap following the awarded fair catch).