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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: FLAHL on November 26, 2017, 02:44:02 PM

Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: FLAHL on November 26, 2017, 02:44:02 PM
Had this on Friday night:

B has 12 on the field, and one of them is racing to the sideline to get off before the snap.

As the HL is grabbing his flag for illegal substitution, A false starts.

Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't. So, what do we have?

A) call the foul for IS only,
B) call the false start only,
C) call both, and offset them

None of those options felt right. We chose C.  What do you think?
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: Rulesman on November 26, 2017, 04:02:28 PM
Sounds suspiciously like the Iron Bowl. ???
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 26, 2017, 05:33:49 PM
AS the WH, if I have one flag on the field, I'm working with it, whichever one it is. If I have two, I'm offsetting and replaying.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: KWH on November 26, 2017, 08:23:51 PM

As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.

Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: prab on November 26, 2017, 10:03:19 PM
As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.

Sounds right to me!
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: js in sc on November 26, 2017, 10:12:07 PM
As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.
I would respectfully disagree.  The substitute has 3 seconds to begin to leave the field after being replaced, by HS rules, regardless of the snap, unless it occurs prior to his getting off the field.  The ball does not have to be snapped to receive a foul for IS.  If there was less than 3 seconds elapsed before the whistle for a false start, then there would be no foul.  If the flags came out at the same time, then offset.  IS can be a dead ball foul.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: ChicagoZebra on November 26, 2017, 10:33:57 PM
You cannot offset non-15 yards dead ball penalties in this way. There is no rule support for that. Pick one and go with it. I'd probably lean towards the false start.
Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 27, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
You cannot offset non-15 yards dead ball penalties in this way. There is no rule support for that. Pick one and go with it. I'd probably lean towards the false start.
Sure you can. Well, technically you are correct. All dead ball fouls that are not 15 yds are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence. But, if the officials cannot determine who fouled first, then even those can be offset and the down remains the same.

I can think of two situations off the top:
A and B both jump into the neutral zone at the exact same time. Officials can not determine who went first-wave them off and down remains same

After 3rd down both teams sub punt teams in. Both send too many. Officials observe 12 in formation on both teams. Two flags. Penalties offset.


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Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: Ralph Damren on November 27, 2017, 08:39:39 AM
IMHO....
  (1) IF 12 were still in the huddle when the FS occurred, you would have to decide :
  (a) had the replaced B player used up his 3 second hesitation ?? If yes = enforce in order of occurrence - B fouled first, could create new series if less than 5 YTG.
  (b) IF the replaced  B player was hightailing toward the sideline, or his 3 second countdown wasn't up when FS occurred = FS only.
  (c) IF the FS & IS occurred simultaneously (my choice over "a") =they cancel (case book support).

 (2) IF both teams simultaneously encroach , you would have FS on A/K as that would precede their entry into the neutral zone.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: KWH on November 27, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
IMHO....
  (1) IF 12 were still in the huddle when the FS occurred, you would have to decide :
  (a) had the replaced B player used up his 3 second hesitation ?? If yes = enforce in order of occurrence - B fouled first, could create new series if less than 5 YTG.
  (b) IF the replaced  B player was hightailing toward the sideline, or his 3 second countdown wasn't up when FS occurred = FS only.
  (c) IF the FS & IS occurred simultaneously (my choice over "a") =they cancel (case book support).

 (2) IF both teams simultaneously encroach , you would have FS on A/K as that would precede their entry into the neutral zone.


Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: Ump33 on November 27, 2017, 09:33:17 AM

Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.

+1
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 27, 2017, 08:53:36 PM

Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.


I disagree.  The OP does not indicate if the replaced player had been on the field for more than his allowed 3 seconds before he realized that he had to leave, but does say "Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't." So, what do we have?  Since we have always been instructed not to reach for a flag until we have a foul, I read the OP to say that B must have exceeded his allowed 3 seconds before he starts to depart, therefore has fouled before the A false start since the HL is already reaching for his flag when the false start occurs.  The fact that the player is heading off as he reaches for his flag is irrelevant.

I'd have A) Call the foul for IS only.
Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on November 27, 2017, 09:03:28 PM
I disagree.  The OP does not indicate if the replaced player had been on the field for more than his allowed 3 seconds before he realized that he had to leave, but does say "Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't." So, what do we have?  Since we have always been instructed not to reach for a flag until we have a foul, I read the OP to say that B must have exceeded his allowed 3 seconds before he starts to depart, therefore has fouled before the A false start since the HL is already reaching for his flag when the false start occurs.  The fact that the player is heading off as he reaches for his flag is irrelevant.

I'd have A) Call the foul for IS only.
I have to agree with this. If the official is reaching for his flag he has already determined a foul has taken place. Whatever happens after that is irrelevant


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Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: BIG UMP on November 30, 2017, 02:08:50 PM
I don't see IS here.  If he is racing to get off the field before the snap he's not in the "formation" so therefore he is trying to beat a live ball IS or IP foul at the snap.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 30, 2017, 09:02:29 PM
I don't see IS here.  If he is racing to get off the field before the snap he's not in the "formation" so therefore he is trying to beat a live ball IS or IP foul at the snap.
Except that's not the applicable NFHS rule that applies.  If the HL in the OP has determined that Team B has had 12 players on the field for more than 3 seconds without anyone headed off the field and the snap is eminent we have an IS foul.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on November 30, 2017, 09:12:05 PM
See Rule 3-7-1:   ...... replaced players shall begin to leave the field within 3 seconds.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: KWH on December 01, 2017, 11:45:43 AM
Except that's not the applicable NFHS rule that applies.  If the HL in the OP has determined that Team B has had 12 players on the field for more than 3 seconds without anyone headed off the field and the snap is eminent we have an IS foul.

Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: VA Official on December 01, 2017, 02:10:55 PM
Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)

You missed the last sentence of 2-32-12 which provides 5 other ways in 2-32-15 that a player can become a replaced player. The last sentence of 2-32-12: "A player is also replaced when an entering substitute becomes a player." 5 ways to become a player are listed in 2-32-15. If an entering substitute does any of those 5 things, another player on his team has simultaneously become a replaced player.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on December 01, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)

Once there are 12 players on the field then by rule 2-32-12 it is clear that we have 11 players and 1 "replaced player" on the field.  The "replaced player" whoever he may be must then start to depart within the three seconds per 3-7-1.  It is not our responsibility to figure out which player that is, if the replacement player is on his side of the NZ, and is in formation, then one other player simply must start to depart.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: refjeff on December 06, 2017, 09:43:48 AM
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: js in sc on December 06, 2017, 01:18:03 PM
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Then why do we call IS as a dead ball foul before the snap on A and B? 
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: NVFOA_Ump on December 06, 2017, 01:39:35 PM
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Actually the play in the OP is a Dead Ball Illegal Substitution.  Once the HL commits to throwing his flag we have a DB foul, therefore can't have a False Start.  The fact that the flag isn't on the ground yet is immaterial.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: SouthGARef on December 06, 2017, 02:39:34 PM
Sure you can. Well, technically you are correct. All dead ball fouls that are not 15 yds are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence. But, if the officials cannot determine who fouled first, then even those can be offset and the down remains the same.

Except, of course, if this situation happens inside the 10 yard line and now we have problems. Simply canceling out the yardage and "enforcing" both fouls isn't an option, either. This is the very situation that happened in a game here last week. I haven't seen it, but I heard about it.

Personally, I go with the false start. If the Team B player was on his way out, that makes me believe that the substitution process was completed immediately. If it hadn't the flag would've been thrown already. Penalizing Team B for an illegal sub with one of their players attempting to get off the field and before the ball is snapped is a bad look and doesn't sit easy with me. I don't like enforcing both - because *something* had to have happened first - and the false start makes more sense to me.

Also think this is one of those "you'd have to see it" discussions.
Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on December 06, 2017, 03:59:21 PM
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Rule reference?


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Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: PABJNR on December 06, 2017, 07:16:11 PM
3-7-4 During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.

2-7-1 A down is action which starts with a legal snap....

Of course this only applies if 3-7-1 has not been violated


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Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on December 07, 2017, 07:15:05 AM
Which is precisely my point. There is no rule that states that B has until the snap to get off the field. He has 3 seconds to begin to leave. IF the snap catches him as he attempts to leave, AND he doesn’t participate, the foul is IS, Not IP. Thats the intent of 3-7-4. Also, this applies to A and B, not just B. 


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Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on December 07, 2017, 07:38:54 AM
Except, of course, if this situation happens inside the 10 yard line and now we have problems. Simply canceling out the yardage and "enforcing" both fouls isn't an option, either. This is the very situation that happened in a game here last week. I haven't seen it, but I heard about it.

Personally, I go with the false start. If the Team B player was on his way out, that makes me believe that the substitution process was completed immediately. If it hadn't the flag would've been thrown already. Penalizing Team B for an illegal sub with one of their players attempting to get off the field and before the ball is snapped is a bad look and doesn't sit easy with me. I don't like enforcing both - because *something* had to have happened first - and the false start makes more sense to me.

Also think this is one of those "you'd have to see it" discussions.
I agree with this. As I said earlier, if I’m the WH and only have one flag, I’m going with it. I can see where the false start bailed the defense out on this play, especially if the 3 seconds had not previously expired. I could also be ok with my guy telling me he had IS before the false start


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Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: refjeff on December 07, 2017, 07:44:34 AM
Which is precisely my point. There is no rule that states that B has until the snap to get off the field. He has 3 seconds to begin to leave. IF the snap catches him as he attempts to leave, AND he doesn’t participate, the foul is IS, Not IP. Thats the intent of 3-7-4. Also, this applies to A and B, not just B. 
  OK, I said B has until the snap to get off the field because on this play it was a B player that was trying to get off the field.  If it had been an A player I would have said that instead.
Title: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on December 07, 2017, 08:21:12 AM
  OK, I said B has until the snap to get off the field because on this play it was a B player that was trying to get off the field.  If it had been an A player I would have said that instead.
Gotcha. So you’re assuming the 3 second rule has not been violated ?


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Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: refjeff on December 07, 2017, 10:07:14 AM
Gotcha. So you’re assuming the 3 second rule has not been violated ?
  Correct, I am not assuming anything that was not in the original post.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: CalhounLJ on December 07, 2017, 10:22:32 AM
  Correct, I am not assuming anything that was not in the original post.
This is the problem. The OP reads as if the HL has decided the 3 second rule may have expired
"As the HL is grabbing his flag for illegal substitution, A false starts."
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: Ralph Damren on December 07, 2017, 01:02:57 PM
IMHO, once a DB foul occurs , the only DB fouls that could follow are PF & USC. In the OP, the HL was making the call when the FS occurred. The crew needs to decide :

(1) IF the IS had occurred BEFORE the FS, the FS never happened;
(2) IF it couldn't be determine which occurred first, they should cancel;
(3) IF the FS occurred first, the IS never happened.

An example of applying "order of occurrence :

(1) Bubba (OL) tips over in the NZ before the snap;
(2) Tugboat (DL) then kicks Bubba in the babymakers;
(3) As Tugboat sails out of the game, march sNiCkErS off 10 against B; 
UNLESS :
 (a) A was inside their own 10;
 (b) B committed the encroachment followed by A's PF with less than 5 yds to go, B's foul would create a first down UNLESS they were inside B'10. You should  sNiCkErS step of the first 5, signal #8, then step off 15 in the other direction, than set the stakes.

If you are still confused, may I recommend a Clam Flats Martini - served at many coastal Maine watering holes :)

AND REMEMBER...

WHO, WHAT, WHEN,
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: refjeff on December 08, 2017, 10:25:59 AM
  (2) IF it couldn't be determine which occurred first, they should cancel; 

Actually, as the R on my crew this is is what I would have done.  No harm, no foul, let's play ball.  Everybody's happy.

On our crew, if either team has 12 in the huddle or formation we are going to tell them "You've got 12" and give them a chance to correct it.  If the snap is imminent we will blow the whistle and penalize for IS.  If a replaced player is hustling to get off the field we will give them every opportunity to do so, and the wing is not going to look too closely over his shoulder.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: prab on December 08, 2017, 10:45:36 AM
If a replaced player is hustling to get off the field and will give them every opportunity to do so, and the wing is not going to look too-closely over his shoulder.

I realize that this is a bit of a digression, but while working as BJ, I actually observed the following;

B12 was 12th man and was hustling to get off of the field.  HL was positioned about 2 yards onto the field on his side (this was an acceptable practice several years ago).  As soon as B12 passed the HL on his way to the bench area, HL ignored him.  LJ then tossed IS flag for B12 not having gotten off of the field before the snap.  (Air Force fighter pilots would kill for eyesight that good!) Thereafter, LJ's career took a nosedive.
Title: Re: 2 pre snap fouls
Post by: AlUpstateNY on December 08, 2017, 12:09:13 PM
I realize that this is a bit of a digression, but while working as BJ, I actually observed the following;

B12 was 12th man and was hustling to get off of the field.  HL was positioned about 2 yards onto the field on his side (this was an acceptable practice several years ago).  As soon as B12 passed the HL on his way to the bench area, HL ignored him.  LJ then tossed IS flag for B12 not having gotten off of the field before the snap.  (Air Force fighter pilots would kill for eyesight that good!) Thereafter, LJ's career took a nosedive. 

We all "Reap what we sow", including LJs