Author Topic: NFHS Rules Survey is up  (Read 2163 times)

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2022, 05:57:35 AM »
There has been more than one occasion where the perception of what we're doing comes across poorly, even if we're doing things right -- mostly because we're not enforcing rules like the coaches/fans/players see on TV. Usually, we can explain to a coach the rule behind the call, but the one that's gotten the most pushback is when we seemingly mark off 12 yards on a 10 yard penalty.

Yes, the spot of the foul was 2 yards behind the LOS, but it just looks like we can't count to 10. We're doing it right, but it looks like we're doing it wrong - especially to every fan who can now clearly see that it's 1st and 22 after a 10 yard penalty.

I understand the arguments for and against it, but there's a couple things in this thread that really highlight the disparity of this. First, especially holding on the line can have a huge "window" for the spot of the foul. Ball snapped at the A20, first contact is made at the A19, the defender is grabbed at the A18, started to be pulled off balance at the A16 and hits the ground between the A15 and A13 (he's 6' tall, after all). Where's the "spot of the foul"? At our discretion, we can essentially add five yards to the penalty. Secondly, Al's point about it incentivizing fouling -- if you have a QB scrambling and a lineman realizes he can "help" by tackling the oncoming defender, he's not doing mental math to figure out how many yards the penalty will be. He's just hoping it won't get called at all.

It's really simple,  with every RISK ventured, there's the potential for EITHER proscribed Benefit or Consequence to deal with.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2022, 07:02:45 AM »
If you are mic'd it's easy : "Holding- 10 yard penalty - enforced from the spot of the foul." Frenzed masses and coaches may think "...that ain't the way it was Sunday  ??? " But then realize : " Ayuh, 'spect so".

IF you aren't mic'd, try YELLING (i believe I was a town cryer- the guy who yells 'TWO O'CLOCK &ALL IS WELL' in a previous life) : "HOLDING -10 YARD PENALTY --ENFORCED FROM THE SPOT OF THE FOUL".  ^flag

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2022, 10:36:46 AM »
If you are mic'd it's easy : "Holding- 10 yard penalty - enforced from the spot of the foul." Frenzed masses and coaches may think "...that ain't the way it was Sunday  ??? " But then realize : " Ayuh, 'spect so".

IF you aren't mic'd, try YELLING (i believe I was a town cryer- the guy who yells 'TWO O'CLOCK &ALL IS WELL' in a previous life) : "HOLDING -10 YARD PENALTY --ENFORCED FROM THE SPOT OF THE FOUL".  ^flag
Next point on the agenda: get high schools to pay for field microphones (or else have the association buy field mics to work with the school PA systems).

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2022, 06:15:20 PM »
........    First, especially holding on the line can have a huge "window" for the spot of the foul. Ball snapped at the A20, first contact is made at the A19, the defender is grabbed at the A18, started to be pulled off balance at the A16 and hits the ground between the A15 and A13 (he's 6' tall, after all). Where's the "spot of the foul"? ....

The spot of the foul is the A18 - that's when the block morphed into a foul.  How far further back a drags B has no bearing on the spot of the foul.  This isn't rocket science and isn't intended to tag A with a "worst case scenario".  If the hold starts at the A18 that's where my flag is.  And IMHO I'd have no problem with all A fouls behind the LOS being spot fouls since the spot of the foul is where the illegal advantage actually began.
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2022, 07:15:42 PM »
Next point on the agenda: get high schools to pay for field microphones (or else have the association buy field mics to work with the school PA systems).

Do you really think a detailed , verbal explanation of each penalty signal is actually necessary, and worth the expense of retrofitting thousands of HS football fields?  Timely, well defined, properly executed signals (including the next down, or the LOD signal) have worked well and have been deemed acceptable for the VAST majority of Coaches, players, spectators for over 100 years.  For those spectators needing additional detail, politely asking the nearest spectator, paying attention to the Referee's signal, seems a lot more cost effective means of providing such detail.

For televised games the expense for such additional service seems a matter of responsibility for TV providers.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2022, 08:11:56 PM »
Horses were deemed, for hundreds of years, as an acceptable and reliable means of transportation…then motor vehicles were invented. 

Being miked up is better than not as not everyone knows all the signals including fans, coaches and announcers.

Two of many examples.

1 - I have never, and I mean never had an illegal formation been announced correctly, they have been announced as “illegal procedure”, false starts, etc.

2 - I have seen a disconcerting act called, announced as failure to wear proper equipment, coach hollers that’s not a foul anymore.  Now the wings can get the correct info to the coach, but now he needs calmed down.  When miked up the coach hears the foul…he may disagree but he gets the correct info immediately.

I’m guessing you likely don’t use O2O’s, or if you do it wasn’t as soon as we were permitted to use them.

I do understand why all schools don’t have the microphones as they can be expensive.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2022, 07:14:22 AM »
At stadiums where the PA announcer is in close proximity to the game clock, our ECO will relay the foul and enforcement spot information to him. (“Holding. 10 yards from the spot of the foul. Repeat x down.”)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2022, 07:47:55 AM »
You made me go double check the NCAA rule on that one... if it was just restricted to the player that received the snap, then the QB-RB-QB exchange on a flea flicker would result in the QB being allowed to ditch the pass, but not for the RB. However, that's not the NCAA rule -- once the player that receives the snap relinquishes possession, nobody is allowed to ditch the ball legally.

For NCAA, that is incorrect. Any passer may throw the ball into an area occupied by an eligible Team A player, at any time. And any passer not "under duress" can throw the ball anywhere he wants. The provision about the player that receives the snap only applies to a passer being 'allowed' to throw the ball into an area not occupied by an eligible Team A player, as long as the passer has left the tackle box and the ball crosses the neutral zone (extended). That only applies to the receiver of the snap, who does not relinquish possession of the ball to any other player before throwing the forward pass.

(In a fantasy NCAA league)
Staubach could hand to Dorsett who, under pressure, throws it to the ground at the feet of Pearson - no foul.
Staubach hands to Dorsett who hands it back to Staubach (with no defender within 7 yards of him), who throws the ball 40 yards downfield, with nobody in the area at all - no foul.
Staubach can take the snap, run 7 yards to his right, and throw the ball into the 10th row of seats, but across the neutral zone - no foul.

Those were some better days.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2022, 08:45:30 AM »
Yes, anybody can throw a legal forward pass. I was intending to only discuss the exception for the passer to throw the ball to an area unoccupied by an A receiver -- the "get outside the tackle box and chuck it out of bounds beyond the LOS" play that just became legal in Fed rules.

As you noted, that only applies to the player that controls the snap and as long as they don't relinquish possession first. So if the QB gets the snap and they run a flea flicker (hand to RB who pitches back to QB), the QB is NOT allowed to use the exception to the rule to chuck the ball into an area unoccupied by an A receiver.


Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2022, 09:56:23 AM »
Yes, anybody can throw a legal forward pass. I was intending to only discuss the exception for the passer to throw the ball to an area unoccupied by an A receiver -- the "get outside the tackle box and chuck it out of bounds beyond the LOS" play that just became legal in Fed rules.

As you noted, that only applies to the player that controls the snap and as long as they don't relinquish possession first. So if the QB gets the snap and they run a flea flicker (hand to RB who pitches back to QB), the QB is NOT allowed to use the exception to the rule to chuck the ball into an area unoccupied by an A receiver.

That is correct (for NCAA).

A short story. Playoff game last week, after the shotgun snap, I am looking at line play as the QB is handing the ball to a running back. As the play develops, I see the ball carrier move across my face into the side zone. Near the sideline, he gets surrounded by opponents (still behind the NZ), and he throws the ball high and OB (and beyond the NZ extended). I think, "He wasn't the receiver of the snap. That's ING." I drop a flag, and begin announcing that he wasn't the player that received the snap. After a brief discussion with my H, I signal and announce ING, and am expecting my U to be spotting the ball at the spot of the foul, but there seems to be confusion. The team is claiming that the passer is their QB, and took the snap. Hmm. After a little more conversation with my H and U, we realize that, yeah, the passer was the QB and receiver of the snap. I just got fooled by a fake hand-off, and was so focused on blocking action that I lost track of who actually had the ball. Correction. There is no foul for ING.
Stuff happens.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2022, 11:23:22 AM »
For NCAA, that is incorrect. Any passer may throw the ball into an area occupied by an eligible Team A player, at any time. And any passer not "under duress" can throw the ball anywhere he wants. The provision about the player that receives the snap only applies to a passer being 'allowed' to throw the ball into an area not occupied by an eligible Team A player, as long as the passer has left the tackle box and the ball crosses the neutral zone (extended). That only applies to the receiver of the snap, who does not relinquish possession of the ball to any other player before throwing the forward pass.

(In a fantasy NCAA league)
Staubach could hand to Dorsett who, under pressure, throws it to the ground at the feet of Pearson - no foul.
Staubach hands to Dorsett who hands it back to Staubach (with no defender within 7 yards of him), who throws the ball 40 yards downfield, with nobody in the area at all - no foul.
Staubach can take the snap, run 7 yards to his right, and throw the ball into the 10th row of seats, but across the neutral zone - no foul.

Those were some better days.

(In a real NFL season)
Dandy Don Merdith fakes to Perkins, pitches to Renfro who passes to Bullit Bob Hayes..... ^good

Those were also good days ...until Jim Brown and the Cleveland Browns came to town  :).

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2022, 12:54:34 PM »
(In a real NFL season)
Dandy Don Merdith fakes to Perkins, pitches to Renfro who passes to Bullit Bob Hayes..... ^good

Those were also good days ...until Jim Brown and the Cleveland Browns came to town  :).

Moved to Texas in 1965. New next to nothing about football in general before then. Got indoctrinated into Dallas Cowboys football immediately. Until about 1995, don't get between me and the TV when the 'Boys were playing. Great names: Lee Roy Jordan, Bob Lily, Chuck Howley, Robert Newhouse, Walt Garrison, Rayfield Wright, et al. Talented, civilized, and non-entitled. Not to mention Tom Landry (who, I am told didn't speak to officials much - didn't have much use for officials). Nowadays, I don't even know, or care, when they are playing. Time marches on.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2022, 02:18:04 PM »
Moved to Texas in 1965. New next to nothing about football in general before then. Got indoctrinated into Dallas Cowboys football immediately. Until about 1995, don't get between me and the TV when the 'Boys were playing. Great names: Lee Roy Jordan, Bob Lily, Chuck Howley, Robert Newhouse, Walt Garrison, Rayfield Wright, et al. Talented, civilized, and non-entitled. Not to mention Tom Landry (who, I am told didn't speak to officials much - didn't have much use for officials). Nowadays, I don't even know, or care, when they are playing. Time marches on.

I believe Chuck Howely was the only player on a losing Super Bowl team to be awarded the Super Bowl MVP.  aWaRd

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2022, 03:25:54 PM »
Moved to Texas in 1965. New next to nothing about football in general before then. Got indoctrinated into Dallas Cowboys football immediately. Until about 1995, don't get between me and the TV when the 'Boys were playing. Great names: Lee Roy Jordan, Bob Lily, Chuck Howley, Robert Newhouse, Walt Garrison, Rayfield Wright, et al. Talented, civilized, and non-entitled. Not to mention Tom Landry (who, I am told didn't speak to officials much - didn't have much use for officials). Nowadays, I don't even know, or care, when they are playing. Time marches on.

I wonder how many Dallas Cowboy loyal fans ever bother to recall that Tom Landry, their 1st Head Coach (father), brought with him all the experience, talents, skills, attitude he learned and developed as a HOF defensive back with the.....NY Giants?

Offline refjeff

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2022, 09:04:27 PM »
Do you really think a detailed , verbal explanation of each penalty signal is actually necessary, and worth the expense of retrofitting thousands of HS football fields?  Timely, well defined, properly executed signals (including the next down, or the LOD signal) have worked well and have been deemed acceptable for the VAST majority of Coaches, players, spectators for over 100 years.  For those spectators needing additional detail, politely asking the nearest spectator, paying attention to the Referee's signal, seems a lot more cost effective means of providing such detail.

For televised games the expense for such additional service seems a matter of responsibility for TV providers.
They're becoming more common around here and and are not very expensive.  Routine calls it doesn't matter, but for anything unusual I think it is helpful to be able to explain to everyone what is happening.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2022, 12:47:23 AM »
Do you really think a detailed , verbal explanation of each penalty signal is actually necessary, and worth the expense of retrofitting thousands of HS football fields?

Yes.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2022, 06:00:12 AM »
They're becoming more common around here and and are not very expensive.  Routine calls it doesn't matter, but for anything unusual I think it is helpful to be able to explain to everyone what is happening.

But the root of the problem here is that even when the "fans" get a clear explanation of a penalty they still think that we are wrong due to the "football rules that they know" (ie: Saturday & Sunday).  I've been at enough games with mic'ed up R's who give excellent announcements and still hear plenty of "that's not correct" from both coaches and fans.  I don't see how hearing the announcement is going to help the fact that 90% of the people in the stadium don't know the rules, including in most cases the PA announcers.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2022, 06:40:55 AM »
But the root of the problem here is that even when the "fans" get a clear explanation of a penalty they still think that we are wrong due to the "football rules that they know" (ie: Saturday & Sunday).  I've been at enough games with mic'ed up R's who give excellent announcements and still hear plenty of "that's not correct" from both coaches and fans.  I don't see how hearing the announcement is going to help the fact that 90% of the people in the stadium don't know the rules, including in most cases the PA announcers.
I have season tickets to my favorite college games. You should hear the guys around me explaining how wrong “the refs” are.  I can only imagine siting in the stands during a high school game.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2022, 06:50:40 AM »
Flashing back to 1978, The University of Maine added ice hockey. I quickly became a fan, konwing little about the game oustide of watching the Boston Bruins on TV. we didn't know when to BOO. Our catalyst was our coach. Whwn he got 'excited' we would follow suit  :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:. I feel this still holds true today. When the coach starts screaming the fans will quickly follow.  :!#:!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!# :!#

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2022, 08:32:34 AM »
I have season tickets to my favorite college games. You should hear the guys around me explaining how wrong “the refs” are.  I can only imagine siting in the stands during a high school game.


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If memory serves, there once was a time when those who didn't know what was going on, would simply (politely) seek guidance rather than publicly expressing their ignorance.  Today, it's doubtful we really have that many more blatantly ignorant people, but we do seem to have a lot more, otherwise rational people, paying attention to the more ignorant among us. Some actually consider that progress.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2022, 08:38:27 AM »
Moved to Texas in 1965. New next to nothing about football in general before then. Got indoctrinated into Dallas Cowboys football immediately. Until about 1995, don't get between me and the TV when the 'Boys were playing. Great names: Lee Roy Jordan, Bob Lily, Chuck Howley, Robert Newhouse, Walt Garrison, Rayfield Wright, et al. Talented, civilized, and non-entitled. Not to mention Tom Landry (who, I am told didn't speak to officials much - didn't have much use for officials). Nowadays, I don't even know, or care, when they are playing. Time marches on.

In the pre-Falcons/Saints days, the Cowboys were the team of choice for many SEC fans.  Lee Roy Jordan, D. D. Lewis, Dave Edwards, Perry Lee Dunn, Dennis Homan were some who played ‘round here on Saturdays.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2022, 09:44:04 AM »
Yes.

Counterpoint - No.

NFL and College are spectator sports. High school has spectators, but it's still for the kids, first and foremost. It's important to give the explanation to coaches and teams as to what the foul was and how it's enforced, but it's not strictly necessary to inform the fans.

Since higher levels exist to get the fans to spend money, then you develop procedures to keep the fans interested and informed about the game. That's not to say microphones are a bad thing in high school, but it's not worth forcing an investment for every school.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2022, 10:43:06 AM »
Counterpoints to your counterpoint:

1) it gives us the appearance of being more professional, especially if the R can give good announcements.

2)While it's not necessary to inform fans, it can certainly go a long way in at least offering a rationale for a ruling.  I'd like to think that would appease at least some, who otherwise are just jumping on the 'the refs suck' bandwagon, that they have the capacity to think ok, that makes sense.'  Referencing your  comment From the NHFS Survey thread:  'Yes, the spot of the foul was 2 yards behind the LOS, but it just looks like we can't count to 10. We're doing it right, but it looks like we're doing it wrong - especially to every fan who can now clearly see that it's 1st and 22 after a 10 yard penalty.'

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2022, 11:38:16 AM »
I didn't say that being mic'd up is a bad thing or there aren't positive reasons to do it. It's just not worth mandating it to enforce the expense for small schools that may not be able to afford it and would rather spend that money on teacher salaries or books -- actual educational expenses.

Maybe it's worth suggesting to do it if you can, but I wouldn't make it mandatory.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey is up
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2022, 12:12:35 PM »
Counterpoint - No.

NFL and College are spectator sports. High school has spectators, but it's still for the kids, first and foremost. It's important to give the explanation to coaches and teams as to what the foul was and how it's enforced, but it's not strictly necessary to inform the fans.

Since higher levels exist to get the fans to spend money, then you develop procedures to keep the fans interested and informed about the game. That's not to say microphones are a bad thing in high school, but it's not worth forcing an investment for every school.

Some real-life reasons why “yes.”
1. Had a playoff game last week and we had a late-game situation that required the game clock to be re-set. No field mic. Had to try to show fingers to the CO. After three INCORRECT resets, and about 2 full minutes (a football eternity), the clock finally got reset correctly. With a field mic, as I have done dozens of times before when I had a field mic, I could have flipped on the mic, announced the time to the put on the clock, and we could have been back to play in maybe 10 seconds, total.
2. Had a playoff game yesterday, at the same location, and we had dead-ball UNRs by both teams, with one player being disqualified. Couldn’t make an announcement of the DQ’d player’s number and reason for the DQ. The fans, and everybody else, deserve to know what was going on. Even if I wanted to, I can’t yell loud enough to let folks in the stands and pressbox know  what is going on.
3. When a player’s helmet comes off, it is infinitely better to offer an explanation to the masses as to why he is leaving the game for one down.
4. For fouls that use S19, it is infinitely better to be able to announce the specific foul.
5. For UNS and UNR fouls, it is infinitely better to be able to announce the nature of the foul, i.e., late hit, taunting, etc.

I could list a dozen more. But I’ll stop there.
The cost of a simple but good referee’s field mic system is less than $4,000. That is a very small investment that will yield great returns.