Author Topic: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves  (Read 2821 times)

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Offline Kianlo

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Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« on: December 14, 2022, 11:31:25 PM »
Albany v Mart. I didn't manage to turn it on until late in the 3rd quarter. Albany had it well in hand at that point, but the announcers mentioned that Mart had to kick off both halves. Anybody know why?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2022, 11:37:44 PM »
Albany won and deferred.   Mart chose to kick and R tried 3 times to talk the captain out of it but to no avail.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2022, 03:05:35 AM »
Albany won and deferred.   Mart chose to kick and R tried 3 times to talk the captain out of it but to no avail.

you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.

these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.

sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.

Offline blindtxzebra

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2022, 05:28:08 AM »
you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.

these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.

sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.

Agreed. I never give them the option. Just like at them and say you want the ball and then ask the team that won the toss which way they want to kick.

Offline QAfta

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2022, 06:54:55 AM »
After a defer, you give the other team 3 options, receive, receive or receive.   And if they say anything else, you look at their other captains and say if he says any word that I do not say you have my permission to tackle him right now on this field.  Then repeat, you have 3 options....Don't let a teenager screw this up, especially in the biggest game of their lives.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2022, 07:16:33 AM »
you don't give him that option to kick once the other teams has deferred.

these are 16-18 yearly kids. you tell the losing team you will receive and ask the winning team what direction they are kicking from.

sounds like somebody wanted to be noticed on tv.

Baloney. Yes, these are young men, but they’re NOT children, except when we treat them like children. This is a coaching failure. The coin toss ain’t rocket science. Take a few minutes, coach, to teach your players - ALL of your players - what happens during a coin toss. And make sure ALL of your captains know what you want if you win (directly, or if the opponent defers), or what to do if the opponent wins and chooses to receive, or if they choose to defend a goal, or if they choose to kick. Yes, I have seen all three, and that’s what they wanted.
Darrell Royal would almost always elect to defend the south goal when he played in Lubbock, to take advantage of the strong prevailing south wind. That meant they would kickoff both halves. No, that doesn’t apply to the Mart situation, but, for all we know, Mart wanted to kickoff and play defense, believing they could hold Albany deep in their end, and get field position advantage.
The first choice is the only thing at issue. So, before going out for the coin toss, do one of two things. Ask the head coaches of each team what they want, if they have the first choice. Write it on your card. Or, ask the speaking captain if he knows what to do if they have the first choice.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:43:36 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline Etref

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2022, 08:29:47 AM »
Especially this far along in the season!

Players didn’t get to SC being dumb kids
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline first_year_guy

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2022, 09:38:49 AM »
That is absolutely ridiculous to allow this to happen.  Really made it about the officials on this one, need to be better.  Do we give options on a FST or do we just mark off 5? Same concept here, team defers we give the other team the ball and move on, we do not need to make it dramatic or controversial. 

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2022, 10:02:54 AM »
Do we give options on a FST ...

Most of the time, no. But, we have seen teams decline such penalties when it will keep a field goal kick attempt a sharper angle. Never say never.

And, we still don't know for certain that Mart didn't WANT to kickoff. Yes, highly unusual - rare, actually - but not impossible.

Like I said, try to find out ahead of time what the teams would want to do if they have the first choice. We can't just tell a team what they will do. Sure, if Team A defers, then ASK Team B, "You want to receive - right?"

To just do something to "move on" is clearly a selfish act to get the game over with ASAP. And THAT is making it about the officials, and not the game. If you don't want to be there, and do the job right, get out of the way. There are a lot of other folks that will do it right.

Offline Txgarza

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2022, 12:56:32 PM »
After halftime the sideline reporter said that Mart  coach was upset how his team started. Starting with the coin flip. She said he wasn’t happy about it. Kid may have screwed up. So I’ll take that as certain as can be. When they show replay of game we can listen to it.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2022, 01:05:20 PM »
Like I said, try to find out ahead of time what the teams would want to do if they have the first choice. We can't just tell a team what they will do. Sure, if Team A defers, then ASK Team B, "You want to receive - right?"

FWIW, this is exactly how I do it, too. Give team B every opportunity to get it right, but if they really really want to kick, well, it will be a learning experience for the entire team. Or change the rules to have the coaches give the options.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2022, 01:56:22 PM »
FWIW, this is exactly how I do it, too. Give team B every opportunity to get it right, but if they really really want to kick, well, it will be a learning experience for the entire team. Or change the rules to have the coaches give the options.
I agree with you guys, after the deffered I'll ask : "I assume you want the ball..". It ain't always the kids or the ref that goofs. This occurred a few years ago with a new coach (NFHS):

Scene:          Tie game, overtime 3 minute intermission, coach calls me over

Act I : COACH : "Ain't never done one of these before,, what's gonna' happen"  ??? ??? ???
           ME: "It'll start with a coin toss, winner can choose going first on offense or defense and end of field to play" yEs:
          COACH : "Which is the best choice  :o  ???  :o"
           ME: "Err. ,,,well, in baseball ,the team batting last knows what they have to do in extra innings  ::) :!# ".
          COACH : Ayah,'spect that make sense...."

Act II Turning towards captian, COACH sez' : "So if we win the toss, we'll go on offense  8] !"
         As captain and I stroll toward toward midfield, CAPAIN: "That ain't what ya' told coach,is it  :!# ?"
         ME: "Just listen to your coach, son, just listen to your coach  8]."

ACT III  His team won  ^good
            I knew that I never wanted to be a coach.  hEaDbAnG

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2022, 05:39:17 PM »
After halftime the sideline reporter said that Mart  coach was upset how his team started. Starting with the coin flip. She said he wasn’t happy about it. Kid may have screwed up. So I’ll take that as certain as can be. When they show replay of game we can listen to it.
I looked. They didn’t televise the flip


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Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2022, 07:20:33 AM »
Most of the time, no. But, we have seen teams decline such penalties when it will keep a field goal kick attempt a sharper angle. Never say never.

We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.

Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.

We are “coaching” players  basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.

Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.

The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.


Online ElvisLives

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2022, 08:12:06 AM »
We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.

Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.

We are “coaching” players  basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.

Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.

The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.

I don’t speak for everyone, and neither do you. The choice is theirs, not ours. If the choice is obvious, we do not need to seek a choice from the team. But, there are times when even a false start isn’t obvious. On at least two occasions (over 47 season), I’ve had a team decline a foul by their opponent when Team A was about to attempt a very short, sharp angle field goal. One was a false start, and one was a DOF with contact. On the FST, the defense didn’t want to decrease the angle. On the DOF, the offense didn’t want to increase the angle. In both cases, we got the sideline official to check with the offended HC, and, without hesitation, they made the choice to decline.
Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is a any possible question.

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2022, 09:01:07 AM »
Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is an any possible question.
Unless a player wants to kickoff twice???

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2022, 09:31:59 AM »
Over the past two years I worked a team's game three times.  The first two it was windy and both times the coach chose to defend and end so they kicked both halves but that was discussed in pregame.   The third game wind was not a factor but when I reminded him that I have never had a game for him that he didn't choose to defend an end.  So, with that knowledge,  he didn't want to break the streak so he chose to defend an end.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2022, 10:08:35 AM »
Over the past two years I worked a team's game three times.  The first two it was windy and both times the coach chose to defend and end so they kicked both halves but that was discussed in pregame.   The third game wind was not a factor but when I reminded him that I have never had a game for him that he didn't choose to defend an end.  So, with that knowledge,  he didn't want to break the streak so he chose to defend an end.

 :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

Like I said, from Texarkana to El Paso, Dalhart to Brownsville, prior to the coin toss, try to find out what the HC of both teams would want to do if they have the first choice. And quiz the captains if they know what to do if they have the first choice.

Offline TxBJ

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2022, 10:11:52 AM »
We NEVER “give” the coach the option with FST, we announce and begin to enforce then if the coach says decline it we will but we do not proactively go looking for a decision.

Similarly here, we should NEVER give that option. If the coach really wanted to kick both times he would come tell us.

We are “coaching” players  basically the entire game by preventative officiating. Getting in between players, warning players on formations, lining up in NZ, hands outside the frame, etc. Why would not in this situation.

Absolutely absurd to allow this to happen in the first game of the season or the Championship.

The crew handled this very poorly and will hopefully learn from this and make sure this never happens again in one of their games.

I agree.  Typically if a coach is going to choose to kick or to defend an end, he will let the officials know beforehand.  If he doesn't, the crew should use common sense and not let the player screw up, then make a correction if indeed the coach meant to kick or defend an end.  It will be so rare that you need to go with the percentages and correct in the very rare occurrence it is necessary.


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2022, 12:03:22 PM »
I don’t speak for everyone, and neither do you. The choice is theirs, not ours. If the choice is obvious, we do not need to seek a choice from the team. But, there are times when even a false start isn’t obvious. On at least two occasions (over 47 season), I’ve had a team decline a foul by their opponent when Team A was about to attempt a very short, sharp angle field goal. One was a false start, and one was a DOF with contact. On the FST, the defense didn’t want to decrease the angle. On the DOF, the offense didn’t want to increase the angle. In both cases, we got the sideline official to check with the offended HC, and, without hesitation, they made the choice to decline.
Know the situation, and consult with the HC if there is a any possible question.

A very successful HS coach ALWAYS chose "to kick" when he won the toss. When asked why, he simply stated, "HS kids are more pumped up and ready to play defense to start a game." Couldn't argue with that logic.

Offline Kianlo

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2022, 10:35:24 PM »
I'm not an R but of course I've Reffed plenty of sub varsity games. In 20 odd years, I've only let a team kick starting both halves once. The home team won the toss and the captain said WE WANT TO KICK. I told him that I think he wanted to defer, that way his team would get the ball first to begin the 2nd half. He told me, COACH SAID WE WANT TO KICK. I turned and took a few steps towards the sideline and yelled to the coach, COACH YOU WON THE TOSS, WOULD YOU LIKE TO DEFER. He replied,  NO WE WANT TO KICK. There was no big wind, so I said COACH, IF YOU DEFER, YOU GET THE BALL FIRST IN THE 2ND HALF...before I could finish, he screamed IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR HEARING? WE WANT TO KICK. Message received coach. At the end of the half, which way would you like to kick coach? Needless to say,  he was HACKED.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2022, 06:38:44 AM »
In Maine we bring the head coach out to the coin-toss to satsify 1-1-5 (the NFHS 'be nice' rule). Often the coach reminds his speaking captain of the choice to be taken on our journey to midfield. Again, asking the winning captain :"DO YOU WANT TO DEFER.....?" Should erase any thoughts of kicking from his mind.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2022, 10:20:44 AM »
In Maine we bring the head coach out to the coin-toss to satsify 1-1-5 (the NFHS 'be nice' rule). Often the coach reminds his speaking captain of the choice to be taken on our journey to midfield. Again, asking the winning captain :"DO YOU WANT TO DEFER.....?" Should erase any thoughts of kicking from his mind.

It's NOT our choice to decide if the Coach made the right decision, or the Captain was empowered to make the choice, if YOU have ANY doubt that YOU may have misunderstood the choice that was made, it's really a good idea to check with the Coach to "verify" YOUR understanding of the choice made.  When in doubt, "seeking advise is usually better than having later to beg forgiveness."

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2022, 05:33:04 PM »
I'm not an R but of course I've Reffed plenty of sub varsity games. In 20 odd years, I've only let a team kick starting both halves once. The home team won the toss and the captain said WE WANT TO KICK. I told him that I think he wanted to defer, that way his team would get the ball first to begin the 2nd half. He told me, COACH SAID WE WANT TO KICK. I turned and took a few steps towards the sideline and yelled to the coach, COACH YOU WON THE TOSS, WOULD YOU LIKE TO DEFER. He replied,  NO WE WANT TO KICK. There was no big wind, so I said COACH, IF YOU DEFER, YOU GET THE BALL FIRST IN THE 2ND HALF...before I could finish, he screamed IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR HEARING? WE WANT TO KICK. Message received coach. At the end of the half, which way would you like to kick coach? Needless to say,  he was HACKED.

I believe the Captain (with/without concurrence from their HC) correctly calling the coin toss, has the option to select his choice (to kick, receive or choose a goal to defend) or to "defer" (make that choice prior to the second half KO).  He DOESN'T get to choose for both half's.  He gets the same 3 choices for the second half regardless of what the opponent chooses to begin the game. (K, R or D). 

If, after choosing to defer, the opponent gets the SAME 3 choices for the 1st half, and should that opponent then choose to Kick, the coin toss winner can only choose to Receive or Defend a goal, and the original toss winner  gets to choose "which goal to defend", while maintaining to exercise his (full) choice for the 2nd half.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: Albany v Mart, Mart kicked both halves
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2022, 09:22:29 AM »
I have told more than a few coaches to never say kick (though there might be a 1 in 10,00 chance they might want to kick).   In sub varsity games, my U and I would always tell the captains before we left the sideline to never tell a official they want to kick.  If they tell me that's what the coach wants, I call the coach over before going to the middle of the field.    This is one of the best Preventive Officiating examples you can share and NEVER get called out for.   For varsity games, I tried to never leave the sideline or meet the captains in the middle of the field without knowing what the coaches wanted to do.