Author Topic: 4th down pass, then punt  (Read 8127 times)

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Offline golfingref

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4th down pass, then punt
« on: November 05, 2013, 08:56:01 PM »
This came up in pre-game last Friday night and we could not come up with a consensus. 4th down. A executes a fake punt by having the punter pass the ball in the flats to receiver A81. Seeing he will not make the line to gain, A81 returns behind the LOS, then fumbles. The loose ball is picked up by the punter who then punts the ball downfield. Is this punt legal? We know that a ball can be punted a second time as long as it happens behind the LOS, but does having the play begin with a legal forward pass change that. Can not find anywhere in the rule book or Redding's that dis-allows it. What do you think?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 05:44:25 AM »
Legal play, AFAIK.

Thankfully, my pregames aren't this, well, "interesting".

Offline bbeagle

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 07:54:02 AM »
Every scrimmage down can have one, none or both of the following:
1 pass behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.
1 kick behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.

The order doesn't matter, and what proceeds the pass or kick doesn't matter (as long as there is no possession change).

Pass downfield, ball comes behind the line of scrimmage somehow (without the defense taking it there), a legal kick can be made.

Kick downfield, ball comes behind the line of scrimmage somehow (without the defense taking it there), a legal pass can be made.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 07:59:06 AM »
Rule of :thumbup ,if you can't find a rule that makes it illegal than it is probably legal P_S. We have rule 1-1-6 to make rules for plays where there are none and 9-9-1 to cover unfair situations (coming off the bench to make the tackle,etc). The OP shouldn't need either of those.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 08:20:36 AM »
Every scrimmage down can have one, none or both of the following:
1 forward pass behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.
1 kick behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.

I don't know of any FED rule that limits the number of scrimmage kicks behind the LOS before a COP.

Punt blocked, K picks it up behind LOS & punts again.  Problem?

maven

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 08:35:50 AM »
Every scrimmage down can have one, none or both of the following:
1 forward pass behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.
1 kick behind the line of scrimmage before possession change.


FIFY.

Bama is right, only forward passes are restricted. And A gets 1 per down, and only prior to a COP. B may NEVER legally throw a forward pass during a down. 7-5-2a

Offline bbeagle

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 10:45:02 AM »
FIFY.

Bama is right, only forward passes are restricted. And A gets 1 per down, and only prior to a COP. B may NEVER legally throw a forward pass during a down. 7-5-2a

Wow, I was so wrong. It's nice to have this board.

Offline Bob M.

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 01:46:03 PM »
REPLY: Even more unusual (but still legal): K punts short. R muffs it back behind the NZ. K recovers and (a) punts it again, or (b) throws a legal forward pass downfield  Obviously, (b) is legal provided there were no ineligibles downfield prior to the pass being thrown.
Bob M.

Offline dch

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2013, 09:47:31 PM »
And if that pass by K (Bob M's case B) falls incomplete.  Who gets to next snap the ball, where, what down?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2013, 09:58:54 PM »
And if that pass by K (Bob M's case B) falls incomplete.  Who gets to next snap the ball, where, what down?
K, 1 & 10, previous spot.

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 12:45:42 PM »
K, 1 & 10, previous spot.

And the booing from Rs fans begin...
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Offline VALJ

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 02:26:43 PM »
I disagree.  K ball, 1st and 10, 15 yards downfield of the previous spot.  Because we're going to have to flag the R head coach for a USC.

ALStripes17

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 03:28:43 PM »
I disagree.  K ball, 1st and 10, 15 yards downfield of the previous spot.  Because we're going to have to flag the R head coach for a USC.

+1    :thumbup

And that is why we get paid the big bucks.  To ready for plays like these.

Personal Note:  I refuse to retire until I am on a crew that officiates a free kick off an awarded fair catch - I may be officiating for quite some time

 FlAg1

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2013, 05:45:32 PM »
+1    :thumbup

And that is why we get paid the big bucks.  To ready for plays like these.

Personal Note:  I refuse to retire until I am on a crew that officiates a free kick off an awarded fair catch - I may be officiating for quite some time

 FlAg1

In week 10, one coach told my crew he was going to try a free kick after a FC if he had the chance. No it never happened.
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Offline golfingref

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 06:59:16 PM »
K, 1 & 10, previous spot.

What is the rule reference for that, AB? I have been looking all over for it.

Offline Ump33

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2013, 08:41:47 PM »
K, 1 & 10, previous spot.
What is the rule reference for that, AB? I have been looking all over for it.

Not AB, but here is a Case Book Play

5.1.3 SITUATION D: K’s ball, fourth and 2 at midfield. The scrimmage kick crosses the expanded neutral zone and is muffed by R at the R 40-yard line. The ball then bounds back behind the line of scrimmage and is recovered by K2 at K’s 43-yard line. K2 advances to K’s 49-yard line where he throws an incomplete pass to eligible receiver K80 at the R38. RULING: This is not an illegal forward pass as the ball was legally thrown behind the neutral zone. There has been no change of possession during the down. K is awarded a new series as the ball was touched by R beyond the expanded neutral zone and K is in possession at the end of the down. It will be K’s ball, first and 10 at midfield due to the incomplete pass. (7-52; 2-34-3; 5-1-3f; 7-5-5)

maven

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4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2013, 08:49:25 PM »

What is the rule reference for that, AB? I have been looking all over for it.
5-1-3f


maven

Offline golfingref

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Re: 4th down pass, then punt
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2013, 10:17:36 PM »
Thanks